252 replies to this topic

[boardski]

That is what I had heard also, that would work also but with my suggestion, there would be another way to the top besides the crowded Super Gauge chair when Iron Horse is not running.

[DonaldMReif]

snoloco, on 02 February 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

I heard that there was a plan to upgrade the Zephyr Express to a 6-pack or Chondola then use Zephyr to replace Sunnyside and Sunnyside to replace Looking Glass.

If Winter Park ever does implement the plan, I'd think a Chondola might be the best option for the Zephyr Express lift, given that it does get a lot of foot traffic.

boardski, on 02 February 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

Pano usually runs efficiently with stops and slows about average for a detachable six pack serving intermediate terrain. Sunnyside has become so horrible I actually try to avoid it. The issue is usually at its worst when Pano is closed as it sometimes is due to high wind.

What would 'average' be here? 'Cause I have no idea how average would be defined in terms of number of stops and slows for misloads or misunloads here.

[boardski]

DonaldMReif, on 03 February 2015 - 04:31 PM, said:

If Winter Park ever does implement the plan, I'd think a Chondola might be the best option for the Zephyr Express lift, given that it does get a lot of foot traffic.

What would 'average' be here? 'Cause I have no idea how average would be defined in terms of number of stops and slows for misloads or misunloads here.

By average, I meant about the same as any other 6 pack chair which serves intermediate terrain, IOW about the same frequency of stops/ slows as Super Bee at Copper, Independence at Breck, Lift 1 at Durango Mtn. On a normal ride up Pano there are about 1-2 slows and maybe 1 full stop due to rider error, other times it is a non-stop ride. On Sunnyside, it is difficult to get to the next tower without a stop or slow, and there are 14 of them. The triple chair is just not cutting it anymore and on days when Pano has to be closed, it is a nightmare, especially on weekends. Good thing most passes are also good at Copper since I would definatlely suggest skiing there on weekends when high winds are in the forecast. Last Sunday, at least, when high winds forced them not to run Pano or Eagle Wind, they opened Iron Horse even though it normally only runs Saturdays, this helped immensely since the line for Challenger was backed into the trees, Super Gauge was overflowing the ropes and even Pony Express was 3x the size of the maze. Apparently not enough football fans.

This post has been edited by boardski: 03 February 2015 - 08:20 PM

[DonaldMReif]

boardski, on 03 February 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

By average, I meant about the same as any other 6 pack chair which serves intermediate terrain, IOW about the same frequency of stops/ slows as Super Bee at Copper, Independence at Breck, Lift 1 at Durango Mtn. On a normal ride up Pano there are about 1-2 slows and maybe 1 full stop due to rider error, other times it is a non-stop ride. On Sunnyside, it is difficult to get to the next tower without a stop or slow, and there are 14 of them. The triple chair is just not cutting it anymore and on days when Pano has to be closed, it is a nightmare, especially on weekends. Good thing most passes are also good at Copper since I would definatlely suggest skiing there on weekends when high winds are in the forecast. Last Sunday, at least, when high winds forced them not to run Pano or Eagle Wind, they opened Iron Horse even though it normally only runs Saturdays, this helped immensely since the line for Challenger was backed into the trees, Super Gauge was overflowing the ropes and even Pony Express was 3x the size of the maze. Apparently not enough football fans.

So rule of thumb is, whenever the Panoramic Express is on wind hold, avoid the Sunnyside section of the Mary Jane because that lift is stop and slow and stop and slow all the way up. A lift that's slowing or stopping roughly every ten to fifteen chairs clearly suffers from a people problem - misloads caused by people not paying attention, which seems even more bizarre when there is no beginner access to the Sunnyside lift.

Of course, for six packs, I always think IME that the Kensho SuperChair usually does better than most other intermediate terrain-servicing six packs when it comes to the rate of stops and slows. It services pretty much the same time of terrain the Panoramic Express services. I did 15 trips up the lift over the Christmas week, and I believe it slowed only once in those 15 rides. Now, it having inline loading and having a limited number of routes to access it (your three options to get to Kensho are to traverse down the Dunes from Imperial, take the Wanderlust catwalk from the Independence SuperChair, or ride the Zendo Chair) might have something to contribute to that. Off-topic, but just for a little contrast.

Perhaps for the Mary Jane, the solution is something akin to a high speed quad for Sunnyside, possibly another high speed quad for Challenger, and one for Iron Horse with a mid-unload station near where Pony Express ends. Perhaps Winter Park needs to put up video cameras to study the lift lines at these lifts to see where to upgrade. Sunnyside and the Zephyr Express should almost certainly be put at the top of that list.

[boardski]

I think most people who ride Sunnyside are intermediate skiers who are used to detachable lifts. The problem with upgrading Challenger is there is only one run that is groomed and most of us who ski there like it that way. A triple would work well on that line one day but most of Challenger's clientele are experienced skiers and riders. As you said, Sunnyside and Zephyr should be top of the list and that will help the situation quite a bit.

[DonaldMReif]

If I sound repetitive, catch me, but would a chondola be the best option for the Zephyr Express line? I mean, I think I recall someone on here saying that the existing lift gets a lot of stops and slows that are the work of foot traffic, not mis-loads/misunloads.

[boardski]

That would work very well for Zephyr. I don't ski the park side much but have noticed the Zephyr is also horrible about stops and slows.

[Backbowlsbilly]

boardski, on 04 February 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

That would work very well for Zephyr. I don't ski the park side much but have noticed the Zephyr is also horrible about stops and slows.

Yep, I also think they run Zephyr at a slower speed then the rest of their high speeds with the exception of High Lonesome (Zephyr is around 800 fpm ish, Eskimo, Pano and Super Gauge are 1,000 ish with Olympia at about 900). A replacement for either Challenger or Iron Horse would probably do wonders for the lines at Super Gauge, I was thinking a HSQ over the Iron Horse Line with a one way mid unload at the top of the current Pony Express but a loading carpet triple or quad for Challenger would be nice too. Donald I think a chondola probably would be nice if they replaced Zephyr but they're not going to replace Zephyr just so they can have the cabins on full time for a chondola, I think the current situation works out relatively well with the exception of monster morning lines on weekends on the quad.

Also not a replacement but I think the Battle Mountain development on the backside of Blue Sky at Vail will be nice as well, if they decide not to make it a private club. I would guess they will design it like Arrowhead was designed, as a private club with lift and trail layout built to be annexed in Vail (in that case Beaver Creek via Bachelor Gulch) so that if VR buys it, then they could just slide it into the existing mountain. That whole thing is a really long way off though.

This post has been edited by Backbowlsbilly: 04 February 2015 - 08:08 PM

[DonaldMReif]

Don't the TB-41 quads at Winter Park with Challenger terminals have a slower designed operating speed to begin with because they use compact Challenger terminals instead of the longer ones that lifts like the Mercury SuperChair and Rocky Mountain SuperChair use? I seem to recall that being brought up in an old thread a few years back: http://www.skilifts....showtopic=7360. Off topic, but I thought it might be relevant to why the operating speed on Zephyr is much slower than similar length lifts like the Thunderhead Express and the Rocky Mountain SuperChair.


As for Battle Mountain, I haven't heard any word about that project in years, making me think its status is "in limbo".

This post has been edited by DonaldMReif: 04 February 2015 - 10:10 PM

[DonaldMReif]

And this is a way out there, but there are occasional times where I wonder at Vail if the Skyline Express lift is another lift alignment where a high speed six pack would be more appropriate for the location than the existing high speed quad, as the sole access lift into Blue Sky Basin (you do have two lift options to get back to the Front Side, in the form of the Orient Express and the Teacup Express lift). But then I remember that it is a relatively new lift (dating from the turn of the millenium), so it's going to be a while before replacement time will have to happen on the Skyline Express.

[passengerpigeon]

The Lacs Intrets high-speed quad at Avoriaz has been in need of a replacement for 10 years or so. The lift is the most heavily used lift in the entire resort and always seems to have a queue, even during off-peak seasons. What baffles me is that the management has just installed 2 new high-speed 6 packs further down the mountain and is even thinking about replacing the rarely-crowded Brocheaux triple with a six-pack, yet a replacement for Lacs Intrets has never even been discussed. We can only assume at this point that the management is preserving the lift out of nostalgia.

[Liftkid99]

Wizard at WB would be a good candidate to be upgraded to a 8MGD gondola , since there is always downloading on it when people skiing the glacier in the summer come down and especially this year where there was only a few weeks of ski out. I do love the wizard and solar coaster chairs but I think atleast a one stage gondola to cover wizard and maybe a 2nd stage to cover solar coaster sounds like a good idea.

[teachme]

My first seasons pass was at Blackcomb the year Wiz, Solar and 7th were built. I love those lifts. The thing with Whistler Blackcomb is that there are now 2 independent high speed routes up Blackcomb and 3 up Whistler. Wiz and Solar are very important but not actually critical especially since Blackcomb base did not develop as Interwest hoped at the time. The hub of the system is still Whistler village. On top of this, Whistler has more potential and room to grow while Blackcomb is largely as full of lifts as it will ever need to be. My guess is that wiz and solar will only be replaced when they get too old. Being built in 86 or 87 that must be close and I remember Ausierob saying there are a lot of hours on them. Still, if they can keep them going for little money I guess the few times and days when lines are ugly is not really worth the expense.

I think what needs to be done to WB is to put in the lifts to Westbowl from Creek (planned and cut 20 years ago) or to move on to build the Function Junction base for Vancouver day traffic. While moving Wiz and Solar to one of these spots and putting in a new lift in their place is an option, not sure there is much value in that considering the age of Wiz and Solar. Perhaps that would have been a option 10 years ago, but my guess now is that they will live out their lives where they are until they are too expensive to maintain.

So, that raises the question for the experts on here, at what point do these lifts get too old to maintain economically? (remember they are about 28 years old already!!!)

[liftmech]

This is a discussion we've had in our shop several times. Using one of our lifts as an example, if we did all the necessary upgrades at once it would run us in the neighbourhood of $3.000.000 (!) H-quad cost just over $5.000.000. I'd say any detach over twenty-five years old is a prime candidate for retirement. Short-term, of course, you fix what you can but to my mind that's not economically sustainable. You wind up with a shiny old lift with forty thousand hours and that nagging thought 'what's gonna break next?'

[skier2]

Plus, 25 years is a good long life for an early detach. Take Flyer for example. She's practically an icon at this point but she's getting old, and at some point it's better to let her die with dignity than continue to pour money into the damn thing.

[Kicking Horse]

funny thing is we have fix grip lifts still running from the 50's 60's... so why not let the detachs grow old. I want to see how long one can run...

Just cuz she's 25 years old does not mean she's needs to be replaced. Mean hell, do you replace your house after living in it for 25 years?

[SkiDaBird]

Would the parts that need replacement most often or are the most expensive vary between a fixed and detachable lift? Obviously there is more to break on a detachable, but how much does it actually impact it?

[liftmech]

Look at it this way-- a detach quad operates at twice the speed with twice the load of a fixed double. Therefore, typical wear items such as grips, bearings, sheave and bullwheel liners, und so weiter will probably wear out twice as fast. The individual parts may cost the same but you're replacing them more often. There are other considerations, such as structural fatigue (the Flyer's drive bullwheel was replaced in 2007, only 21 years into the lift's life, and I've found other parts in need of replacement altogether like running rails) that you don't see on fixed-grips. Detach terminals have a huge amount of moving parts that fixed-grips don't have, adding more worn-out parts to maintenance costs. Does this make sense?

Jeff-- I agree but I don't write the checks. I don't, however, see the parallel between a fixed, non-moving structure and what is essentially a vehicle. You can keep a car running indefinitely too, but you'll throw more and more money at it as it ages. Lifts are no different.

[Aussierob]

As liftkid99 pointed out, a gondola up the Wizard or Wizard/Solar lift line would be great. However, it seems that the powers that be are happy to keep upgrading them as long as we can get grip parts. My guess is they are never going away unless a significant requirement for more uphill or downhill capacity arises.

[DonaldMReif]

If Chair 2 at Loveland's on this list, it's being shortened this summer and a new lift is replacing the top half.