15 replies to this topic

[brad82]

Hi All,

Im joining the NSP soon, and one thing (which im sure ill learn) that is perplexing me is the correct way to load a toboggan on the lifts. I know some of the cascade toboggans have chair hooks which allow them to be "hooked" onto a spare seat on the chair, although ive seen patrollers just hold on to the toboggan on the chair

Are there any tricks you've seen your patrollers use, or how you as the op/mechanic prefer us to load the toboggan without wrecking your lift?

I dont know if there is a protocol set per hills patrol team or just "however it works for you"

Cheers :)

[MNSkier]

Brad,

The bottom line is that the protocol for hauling the toboggan on the chair is set by area management in conjunction with the patrol. As a patroller in the midwest I have seen everything from using the chair loader (hook) to having two (or in some cases one) patroller haul the toboggan on the chair lift. The local protocol for our patrol is for two patrollers to load the toboggan on our laps and we never use the hook, this is something that we cover extensivly in our candidate training program.

Here are a few personal observations & opinions:

• The hook works but there are a few issues with it in my opinion that don't make it ideal:

• It is another piece of equipment that you need to keep track of and haul back to the bottom of the hill so you can bring the next sled up.
  
• The hooks that I am familiar with need to be removed to use the sled.
  
• The contents in the toboggan needs to be pretty evenly balanced front to back or it will hang at an awkward position on the chair.
  
• If the handles are folded you need to watch that they don't get caught on the bottom of the chair when loading. It is almost necesary to leave the handles un-folded and in the locked position when using the hook.
  
• If it is windy you might be on a real exciting chair ride if the toboggan is on the hook. It can start to act as a kite and swing wildly, and it is nearly impossible to do anything about it but hang on.

• 
  The newer cascade toboggans are heavier then the old ones so I don't even try hauling a new sled with equipment up the chaif by myself.
  
• 
  If your loading on chairs that do NOT have a center pole then you can haul an empty sled with one or two people quite easily.
  
• 
  If your loading on a center pole chair, either double or quad I find it is easiest to have two patrollers lap load.
  
• 
  I have found it difficult to get myself positioned correclty for hauling a toboggon alone on a center pole chair.
  
• 
  Regardless of chair configuration, with two people you have a solid hold on the toboggan and it is very stable even in windy conditions.
  
• 
  Bottom line is that Two people hauling a sled is the smart decision especially if you have gear in the sled or it is windy.

My above comments are based on the fact Cascade sleds are used almost exclusively in our region so that is what I have experience with.

Hope that helps.

This post has been edited by MNSkier: 22 April 2012 - 09:01 AM

[vons]

The only problem I have with the two person technique is the damage it dose to our new lift.

[brad82]

I've seen a technique used in Europe where the handles are tied inside the toboggan then two patrollers hold the toboggan using the handle poles at 90 degress to their body. It was a particularly foggy so the patrol was out in force, we did actually see a guy holding on to a cascade sled hanging off the outer side of the chair with one arm, guy was pretty built!

I'm hoping to go out to Squaw on the 13/14 season and spend a good few years there as a patroller, trying to get all the OEC stuff learned before I fly out. No doubt ill end up in a job as a liftie for a while!

@Vons: What sort of damage does it cause to your lift?

[vons]

The metal runners on the toboggans cut the pads on the backrest of the chair.

[Allan]

We use the hooks. Never seen one carried! Lifts are slowed or stopped depending on patroller's preference (centre pole chair is always stopped.)

Lift ops send the carriers back down the chair (two at each lift.)
Keep the t-bogs at a 45ish degree angle when loading, on the outside seat - that'll keep the handles out of the way of the chair - it'll straighten itself out.

[MNSkier]

Vons,

How exactly does the runner hit the backrest? I cannot see how the runners would contact the back rest, in fact the only contact that I am aware of is sometimes the handles will hit the end arm rest or the center pole, but that is more of an issue when loading by yourself.

When we load with two people the handles are folded and secured. The two patrollers pick the sled up in front of them (with the bottom facing forward) and hold on with one hand on the strap at the end of the sled and the other hand on one of the patient straps. We ski into the lift line and sit down when the chair comes just like you normally do. The sled rests on edge in our laps with the bottom / runners facing uphill. This is done on our Fixed Grip quads at normal operating speeds (I would estimate to be at 75% of full speed) and in most cases it is not necessary to slow the chair.

[vons]

Our patrol places the sled between two patrollers and passes the sled over the backrest of the chair resting the sled on the backrest and front of the seat (the sled is parallel to the haul rope with the nose pointing toward the ground). The runners rest on the backrest in this position and if the patrolmen let the sled slide off the chair at the top instead of picking it up and off it cuts the backrest pad.

When a single patrol man loads a sled solo they rest it on their lap the way you describe.

[liftmech]

There's a ressurected company out of Portland which makes a sled with an integrated chairlift hook. No need to take it off and send it back down the lift.

I hadn't seen or heard of any damage to carrier pads-- must be those shiny new Austrian ones because mine are fine.

[vons]

yup one or two of the new ones got cut by toboggans this year,

[Andy1962]

liftmech, on 23 April 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

There's a ressurected company out of Portland which makes a sled with an integrated chairlift hook. No need to take it off and send it back down the lift.

I hadn't seen or heard of any damage to carrier pads-- must be those shiny new Austrian ones because mine are fine.

Traverse Rescue - a Ferno Group company makes a ski patrol rescue toboggan with the chairlift loader system integrated into the handlebars. We have a couple of these toboggans at our hill. Several Ontario resorts have moved to the Traverse toboggan in recent years

https://traverseresc...=231&cat=0=

Good quality toboggan. Extremely easy to prep toboggan for chairlift loading and seconds to fold away the loader rig system and prep the toboggan to ski away from top of chair to toboggan cache or to incident.


While I have your attention, my little trick for making the toboggan move easily off the top chair ramp is to stand up as early as possible at off load time, do a scissor maneuver with my legs so that one leg is well back and pressing against the seat of the chair. My inside hand is forward holding the toboggan rig and in this way the toboggan is forced to stay a few inches ahead of me and the handle of the "rig" naturally leaves the chair lift seat earlier than it otherwise would. Result: toboggan dos not get hung up on chair at offload, resulting in a chair stop or( forced quick lift with the arms ) to offload.


My hill has also used the Clipper toboggan.

You will find a pretty good article here on various ski patrol rescue toboggans from the Fernie Ski Patrol at Fernie Alpine Resort:

http://www.ferniefix...y-patrol-report

This post has been edited by Andy1962: 24 April 2012 - 05:26 AM

[2milehi]

At Breckenridge there are no toboggans allowed on the chairs. Patrol drags them up on a sled either before or after public is on the mountain. My first year at Keystone I saw a ski patroller load on a HSQ with a toboggan, partly dropped the toboggan so that one end was in the loading board snow and the other end was pushing up the chair into the terminal and launched the ski patroller all while public was on line. The chair was fine along with the patroller, but after that incident Keystone patrol now pulls up the toboggans via sleds.

The only lift that is still allowed to have a toboggan on at Keystone it is the 6-pack Ruby. There is one chair that is specially fitted with a bracket to hold the toboggan and is meant for an injured guest.

[Lift Kid]

Looks like most techniques I'm familiar with have been discussed.

At one ski area where I patrol, about half of our toboggans have hooks welded onto the underside of the handles (courtesy of lift maintenance) for chairlift loading. These hooks are very effective, but rely on the toboggan straps to hold everything together. The three toboggan straps are looped over the metal handles. Our protocol is to send the gear (toboggan bags, backboard, etc) up with a patroller on a separate chair. That way the toboggan is lighter and easier to maneuver. Also, it places less stress on the straps. This technique has worked for many years, though the hooks have only been welded onto the older Cascade toboggans which weigh much less than the newer models.

We simply carry the newer toboggans on laps. Since most of our lifts are doubles, and several are center poles, we typically have only one patroller on the chair. Again, the toboggan is emptied and gear is sent with a patroller on another chair.

I have used detachable hooks for the Cascade toboggans which were nice. The hooks don't rely on the toboggan straps to hold everything together, but you do have to worry about storing the hooks when not in use.

At another ski area where I patrol, we generally carry toboggans by snowmobile. This is safer for patrollers, there's less chance of chairlift mishaps and it's usually quicker since the toboggans don't need to be emptied and re-packed. However, on busy weekends and holidays we will carry toboggans on lap. This is due to the high skier traffic (making snowmobile traffic far more treacherous) and the higher number of incidents occurring which keeps the snowmobiles busy elsewhere.

You will find a different protocol at every area. The biggest tip I can give is to always allow adequate time to prepare for unloading. Check all straps to make sure you're not caught anywhere and make sure you actually get the toboggan off the chair (they like to break stop gates when they go 'round). If in doubt, talk to patrollers at your area. For the most part, I've found that each lift presents different challenges ranging from different places for the toboggan to get caught to seat pads that are so thick that the toboggan is hard to unload.

[zeedotcom]

At the areas that I have been at a variety of the above techniques have been used.
A lot of the areas use carrying the toboggan up on the chair as a standard practice but also leave one empty chair ahead of and behind the chair the the toboggan as well as notifying the top operator that they are coming up. The empty chairs decrease the risk of their being a skier down at the top to trip the patroller or of a mishap if the patroller falls and the skier behind them runs into them. They slow down the lift for loading and notify the top operator if they would like it slowed for unloading as well (some patrollers prefer not to have it slowed as the extra speed makes unloading a bit easier).

[MNSkier]

Zee,

Good point on the empty chairs in front and back of the toboggan, that is standard protocol everyplace I have been that hauls the toboggan on a chair. I personally prefer if they leave the lift at full speed at unload, seems to make things easier.

[DonaldMReif]

2milehi, on 24 April 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

At Breckenridge there are no toboggans allowed on the chairs. Patrol drags them up on a sled either before or after public is on the mountain. My first year at Keystone I saw a ski patroller load on a HSQ with a toboggan, partly dropped the toboggan so that one end was in the loading board snow and the other end was pushing up the chair into the terminal and launched the ski patroller all while public was on line. The chair was fine along with the patroller, but after that incident Keystone patrol now pulls up the toboggans via sleds.

The only lift that is still allowed to have a toboggan on at Keystone it is the 6-pack Ruby. There is one chair that is specially fitted with a bracket to hold the toboggan and is meant for an injured guest.

I've seen the bracket chair. I guess the gates are programmed not to open for it.

I know that Vail uses sleds to take toboggans up. They don't have bracket chairs, but I know there are at least three high speed quads where toboggans with injured guests are put on the lifts (which comes at the expense that the lift has to be stopped for several minutes twice, first to load the toboggan at the bottom and then to take it off at the top): the Game Creek Express, and both the Teacup Express and Orient Express lifts. I know that because I've had experiences on all three of them where the lift had a lengthy stop while I was wating in line or riding said lift. Unfortunately, since the top cannot be seen from the bottom on any of the three, I could never tell whether a toboggan was being loaded/removed or the lift operators were debating whether to use the diesel drive or not.