19 replies to this topic

[trooper1556]

Includes an additional gondola, many new high speed lifts and expansions in the pioneer ridge and sunshine areas:
http://www.steamboat...masterplan.aspx

[DonaldMReif]

All of the upgrades sound good in my opinion, but there are a few that do make me stop and think for a moment:

1. The Thunderhead Express upgrade doesn't seem the best. I was at Steamboat last year, and Thunderhead's lines were very short - the only time they were long was in the morning when the Gondola was closed for wind.

2. Upgrading Elkhead to a high speed six pack seems like overkill. I think a high speed quad would do fine for Elkhead.

3. I think South Peak's short enough that a quad would also seem unnecessary.

4. Sunshine II sounds like a good proposal. Just as long as it's a high speed quad.

5. The Pony Express chair capacity increase sounds like a great idea. They might need to replace the existing chairs for asthetic purposes.


A few things I think would benefit this master plan:


1. Adding another lift to extend the Sundown runs further down valley from the Sundown Express.

2. Upgrading Morningside to a high speed quad and adding grooming to some of those trails. Also build a fixed-grip quad allowing direct return from Morningside to Sunshine Peak.

This post has been edited by DonaldMReif: 14 September 2012 - 02:21 PM

[skier2]

DonaldMReif, on 14 September 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

All of the upgrades sound good in my opinion, but there are a few that do make me stop and think for a moment:

1. The Thunderhead Express upgrade doesn't seem the best. I was at Steamboat last year, and Thunderhead's lines were very short - the only time they were long was in the morning when the Gondola was closed for wind.

2. Upgrading Elkhead to a high speed six pack seems like overkill. I think a high speed quad would do fine for Elkhead.

3. I think South Peak's short enough that a quad would also seem unnecessary.

4. Sunshine II sounds like a good proposal. Just as long as it's a high speed quad.

5. The Pony Express chair capacity increase sounds like a great idea. They might need to replace the existing chairs for asthetic purposes.


A few things I think would benefit this master plan:


1. Adding another lift to extend the Sundown runs further down valley from the Sundown Express.

2. Upgrading Morningside to a high speed quad and adding grooming to some of those trails. Also build a fixed-grip quad allowing direct return from Morningside to Sunshine Peak.

If they were to install the second gondola, it would drop off at the base of Thunderhead, making lines there longer, hence the upgrade. Then, from what I had heard, the old Thunderhead would be moved to Elkhead, making that a HSQ, not a HSS.

I also like the idea of a Sunshine II, but the terrain there is flat. Still, that part of the mountain is fun because its sunny and warm and the terrain has a lot of natural undulations. I think the thinking is that if they were to in fact install a second HSQ in the Sunshine pod, that an upgrade would be needed for South Peak to handle the additional traffic. I don't necessarily agree, though, since skiers can also avoid that lift altogether and ski out of the Sunshine basin. I'd also like to see an eventual upgrade of Sunshine to a HSS.

I also think Steamboat would benefit greatly from a new configuration for the terrain park and Bashor chair--perhaps they could re-grade the entire bashor area and then install a FGQ or HSQ from the current Bashor base to the top of Christie Peak and then remove Christie II to accomodate a larger terminal on the peak there. They could even extend the base of a differently-aligned Bashor chair all the way to the base of Thunderhead and then remove some tree pods and create a huge mountain playground with a terrain park, improved NASTAR race arena, and other features for kids.

I don't foresee the mountain ever getting approval to extend trail pods below the current base of Sundown, plus the idea there is to stay high for better snow. Still, Storm Peak and Sundown will probably need replacements within the next 10 years.

[DonaldMReif]

skier2, on 14 September 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

If they were to install the second gondola, it would drop off at the base of Thunderhead, making lines there longer, hence the upgrade. Then, from what I had heard, the old Thunderhead would be moved to Elkhead, making that a HSQ, not a HSS.

I also like the idea of a Sunshine II, but the terrain there is flat. Still, that part of the mountain is fun because its sunny and warm and the terrain has a lot of natural undulations. I think the thinking is that if they were to in fact install a second HSQ in the Sunshine pod, that an upgrade would be needed for South Peak to handle the additional traffic. I don't necessarily agree, though, since skiers can also avoid that lift altogether and ski out of the Sunshine basin. I'd also like to see an eventual upgrade of Sunshine to a HSS.

I also think Steamboat would benefit greatly from a new configuration for the terrain park and Bashor chair--perhaps they could re-grade the entire bashor area and then install a FGQ or HSQ from the current Bashor base to the top of Christie Peak and then remove Christie II to accomodate a larger terminal on the peak there. They could even extend the base of a differently-aligned Bashor chair all the way to the base of Thunderhead and then remove some tree pods and create a huge mountain playground with a terrain park, improved NASTAR race arena, and other features for kids.

I don't foresee the mountain ever getting approval to extend trail pods below the current base of Sundown, plus the idea there is to stay high for better snow. Still, Storm Peak and Sundown will probably need replacements within the next 10 years.

Some of the things I said were hypotheticals if some aspects, like the second gondola, didn't make it through.

I think that the realigned Bashor lift would do wonders. Sundown and Storm Peak are good as HSQs and should stay that way. I think the Sunshine Express lift probably should be reconfigured to regular loading so that people coming from trails east of the lift don't have to go past the lift and make a 180 degree turn (similar to an issue with the Sourdough Express at Vail that was resolved in 2010). The lift queues at the Storm Peak Express and Pony Express lifts should be reconfigured so that there isn't this sudden 90 degree turn needed to line up with the waiting line.

And it's not Christie II, it's III (II is the one that the six pack replaced). However, I would think Christie III should be kept as a standby lift for the Christie Peak Express. I think I said that Burgess Creek would also be on my upgrade list, the idea being that it be upgraded to a HSQ and extended down to the bottom of the Pony Express, making it possible to return to the rest of the main mountain without needing to add traffic to the Tornado Lane trail.

Four Points might need upgrading if the Hut gets upgraded. Though since the Storm Peak Express is right next to it, and is a HSQ that starts lower and ends higher (more convenience), I don't know if that will happen.

[boardski]

The Sunshine II sounds good as long as additional terrain would be available along with it. Those runs already have a lot of traffic on them. I'm not sure if I understand the need of a Gondola going from base of Christie and Preview to bottom of Thunderhead since they have the Christie 6-pack now, although the mid-station for beginners has created exactly the issues I thought it would (frequent stops and slows due to misloads). It would be nice, in some ways, to have the second gondola terminate in between the tops of Storm Peak and Sundown lifts although could create a lot of traffic for this area. The problem with the Gondola terminating at the bottom of Thunderhead is the same problem Vail will face this year with their new Gondola- a high capacity lift feeding into a lower capacity lift since most Gondolas have 8-12 passenger cabins on them. I don't think many will want to ski back down BC skiway to the base since it is flat and crowded but there could be a few.

It is frustrating to see ski areas feel the need to upgrade lifts to detatchable due to excessive user error (frequent stops and slows due to misloads from users being careless). I feel that upgrading Morningside or South Peak would fit this category. Elkhead would be a good upgrade due to the high traffic at the end of the day and before lunch. All this (upgrading MS & SP) does is drive up the cost of participating in the sport which is getting harder for many to afford in our sluggish economy and ties up funds that could be used for terrain expansions and improvements which would benefit the area even more.

The other thing about the master plan which concerns me is the rumor about Bar UE being removed. This would force most everyone on a crowded, icy blue or a groomed, crowded, icy black to ski from bottom of Bar UE to the bottom of Storm Peak and wait in a huge mob. No, thank you. If Bar UE is getting to the point where it needs to be upgraded due to its age (1977 Yan double chair), they should replace it with a new double or triple chair with chair spacing to make capacity equal to conventional double chair and locate the bottom terminal in the current location and the top closer to the top of Morningside, maybe even on the opposide side of the top terminal for Morningside. That way, experts could ski the chutes or Morningside area and intermediates could still ski down into Buddy's Run. Removal of Bar UE would be a huge mistake, possibly big enough to keep me from skiing Steamboat any longer. I also feel like Priest Creek should be open to the public on crowded days. There are enough options at the top of that pod not to crowd the runs up too much. Most people would still opt for standing in line at Sundown anyway but some would ride the PC.

I also like the idea of adding more chairs on Pony Express and installing the second Pony Express opening new terrain in that area which is already in the permit area.

Steamboat is a great area but the crowded "main drag" runs and lines at lifts can be a turn-off. Still a very worth-while place to go, hopefully the coming year's projects will keep it on top.

Just my .02, who knows if the "Powers that be" ever read what we post.

[liftmech]

I'd ride PC as well. Seems I spend more time in line at Sundown than I would riding an old dead double. Ditto with -UE. I don't mind doing a little hiking (although I've definitely done the up-and-over lap to Morningside to get around it). PX, on the other hand, I've never seen with a line. Maybe on a 12"+ day.

[boardski]

Installing the second lift in the Pony Express permit area would likely increase the traffic to the point where that capacity upgrade would be needed. I don't mind the current chairs that are on the Pony though. Those particular style CTEC/ Garaventa chairs are some of the most comfortable around.

[liftmech]

They'll still make them too, so there would be no need to buy all new.

[DonaldMReif]

boardski, on 17 September 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Installing the second lift in the Pony Express permit area would likely increase the traffic to the point where that capacity upgrade would be needed. I don't mind the current chairs that are on the Pony though. Those particular style CTEC/ Garaventa chairs are some of the most comfortable around.

They did look like they were showing their age the last time I went, which was the year they repainted the lift.

[DonaldMReif]

boardski, on 15 September 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

I also feel like Priest Creek should be open to the public on crowded days. There are enough options at the top of that pod not to crowd the runs up too much. Most people would still opt for standing in line at Sundown anyway but some would ride the PC.

I think the problem you're not noticing is that Priest Creek starts slightly uphill from Sundown, so it isn't accessible from some runs without sidestepping.

[boardski]

When I skied there just before Christmas break when the Sundown triple had to close to be repaired following the Teller lift accident at Keystone, Priest Creek was the only lift running. The sidestepping was not a problem but the lines got a little long. Both Sundown and Priest Creek bottom terminals were located in the same locations they are now.

[DonaldMReif]

boardski, on 17 September 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

When I skied there just before Christmas break when the Sundown triple had to close to be repaired following the Teller lift accident at Keystone, Priest Creek was the only lift running. The sidestepping was not a problem but the lines got a little long. Both Sundown and Priest Creek bottom terminals were located in the same locations they are now.

Maybe a lift that could allow you to bypass Thunderhead when you're going to the rest of the mountain. As it is now, everything goes through Thunderhead at the beginning of the day and at the end.

[boardski]

The second proposed gondola from the current base to bottom of Thunderhead would make that issue even worse. I don't think many would opt for skiing crowded and flat "BC Skiway", they would probably want to ride Thunderhead to get higher on the mountain where there are more options. Might as well just have that second gondola terminate just a little to the right (looking up the mountain) of Storm Peak's top terminal. Then people could access everything efficiently with one lift ride.

[DonaldMReif]

boardski, on 17 September 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

The second proposed gondola from the current base to bottom of Thunderhead would make that issue even worse. I don't think many would opt for skiing crowded and flat "BC Skiway", they would probably want to ride Thunderhead to get higher on the mountain where there are more options. Might as well just have that second gondola terminate just a little to the right (looking up the mountain) of Storm Peak's top terminal. Then people could access everything efficiently with one lift ride.

I was suggesting a chairlift on the defunct Arrowhead line. I think the way I'm reading the master plan, that lower mountain would get confusing. Just upgrade Bashor, leave everything else the same and things should be all right for now. I suppose the second gondola would end up being a Thunderhead to the top of Storm Peak based on what you say.

If anything, the idea I floated about Burgess Creek being upgraded to a high speed quad and extended down to the bottom of the Pony Express was about accessibility - getting back from the Pioneer Ridge expansion once that opens, and making a second option to get off Pioneer Ridge besides that catwalk off Longhorn.

Expansion-wise, I'd say that space emptying onto the Skiway right below where the Easy Way catwalk diverges from the hard left on Vagabond looked developable.

[DonaldMReif]

I just looked at the proposal map again, and realized that that second gondola would clutter the base area a little more. Assuming that the Christie Peak Express and Christie III will both remain, that gondola will have to have some incredibly tall towers since it will have to cross both lifts on the way. Furthermore, the point of intersection appears to suggest that it would cross right over Christie Peak's midway turn terminal.

[SkiBachelor]

Talk about redundant lifts in the master plan, although that always seems to be a negotiation tactic when trying to approve new lifts to be built.

[boardski]

Maybe the current Thunderhead will be moved to create Sunshine II when they replace it with a HSS. I hope they upgrade Thunderhead before that Bashor gondola goes in and install the new chairs in the Bashor area (although I still think most will ride Thunderhead immediately after unloading Bashor gondola, especially in the morning. Many who ride Christie Peak will also ride Thunderhead. Maybe a HSE might be a good option for Thunderhead as long as they can minimize slow-downs and stops due to misloads and make sure people fully load the chairs when the lift is busy. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing a lift back in Arrowhead's line which could run during peak times. That was always nice for those who wanted to access the upper mountain and didn't need to access the lodge. The master plan actually looks good overall but timing of the projects will be critical to elimiate clusters on the mountain.

[DonaldMReif]

I see your point about the timing. I still think that BAR-UE should be kept, so that it and Four Points can still be used as an alternative if the Storm Peak Express lift has troubles (although that will be trouble for those runs that empty out too far downhill to allow return to Four Points).

[boardski]

DonaldMReif, on 22 September 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

I see your point about the timing. I still think that BAR-UE should be kept, so that it and Four Points can still be used as an alternative if the Storm Peak Express lift has troubles (although that will be trouble for those runs that empty out too far downhill to allow return to Four Points).

Agreed, I actually use both of those lifts frequently when I ski and ride Steamboat and would be highly disappointed if either of them were removed.

[DonaldMReif]

boardski, on 23 September 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Agreed, I actually use both of those lifts frequently when I ski and ride Steamboat and would be highly disappointed if either of them were removed.

Me being a detachable person, I always head all the way back to Storm Peak, which gives me the benefit of a somewhat longer run. Storm Peak can be accessed from more runs than Four Points, though, as it starts lower down. The longer quad also gives you access to more runs, as you can also reach Morningside Park and some of the trails on the Sunshine Express side of Sunshine Peak.

I think the things that lead to Pioneer Ridge getting less traffic are the fact that it's somewhat out of the way, and many coming into that funnel only go as far as the Storm Peak Express, not considering that the next lift is not too far down. If some more tree clearing was done, Pioneer Ridge could have some ideal runs.

As far as the master plan is concerned, Storm Peak should be left untouched, as the three lifts for the main peak are in ideal locations. Sunshine II being flat is something I'll need to check in Google Earth.

I did mention earlier that Burgess Creek might be more effective if it were extended further downhill to the bottom of the Pony Express, to make getting back from Pioneer Ridge easier and relieve some traffic off Tornado Lane. It would also allow people to know that Pioneer Ridge actually is there.

This post has been edited by DonaldMReif: 23 September 2012 - 07:04 PM