13 replies to this topic

[missouriskier]

While I was at Winter Park, the Panoramic Express was mostly closed on wind hold, but I did get to ride it three times. On one of the rides, it was stopped for a long time. When we skied back to the bottom, it was running on its diesel engine. I think, because of the strong winds, they were having to slow and stop it a lot. Obviously, when running on electric drive, this is easy, because the electric motor is variable speed and can be stopped and started whenever necessary very easily.

The question I have is this: Because it would be impractical to start and stop the diesel engine, it must have a fluid coupling. I know that lifts can have several types of auxiliary drives, and even just an evacuation motor for slow speed unloading. I think that the Panoramic Express is made to run on diesel for extended periods of time if necessary, though. So, how is the diesel engine coupled to the gearbox? It seemed to my dad and me that it was a torque converter, like on an automatic transmission, because they were idling and then accelerating the engine rpm. We run several Cat D8s, and it sounded just like accelerating with one of those (They have torque converters). We think that if it was hydrostatic drive or a hydraulic motor, the engine would have stayed at the same rpm, and then lugged down a little when they slowly started moving the lift. Are we correct, or how is it driven?

This post has been edited by missouriskier: 13 April 2011 - 09:40 AM

[liftmech]

On virtually all lifts, the diesel is coupled directly to the gearbox with the same kind of driveshaft an electric motor would use. The diesel is equipped with a torque converter like a car with an automatic transmission. The diesel's fuel controls are linked to the lift controls, so that the operator can use the same set of buttons either way (start, stop, fast, slow, et cerera). Aside from the large cloud of black smoke on start the lift runs about the same either way.

[missouriskier]

liftmech, on 13 April 2011 - 03:56 AM, said:

On virtually all lifts, the diesel is coupled directly to the gearbox with the same kind of driveshaft an electric motor would use. The diesel is equipped with a torque converter like a car with an automatic transmission. The diesel's fuel controls are linked to the lift controls, so that the operator can use the same set of buttons either way (start, stop, fast, slow, et cerera). Aside from the large cloud of black smoke on start the lift runs about the same either way.

Thanks, liftmech, I figured that it would have to work that way. I do remember being at Copper one time on the Super Bee when it was started from a stop on diesel, and I was near the top where the engines are. It did really throw a cloud of smoke. The Panoramic Express wasn't quite as bad on smoke, but it dosen't have as long of a line or high of a rise, so it would take less power to get started. Also, they were just starting it to a slow speed, not back to full speed.

Also, one more question: Does the torque converter on a lift ever lock-up, like when it is running full speed? This would turn it into direct drive, which would make the lift more efficent. Cars and trucks do this, I just wondered if it works that way on lifts or not.

[SuperRat]

At my mountain we have many diesels drives like liftmech described but we also have seven diesels (3 full-time and 5 evacuation only) that use hydrostatic drives. They generally use variable displacement hydraulic pumps to control the speed of the lift but the diesel's rpm is also varied by the lift, so they don't run high all the time. The full-time engines and one of the evacuation engines, are controlled through same start, stop and slow controls used to run on electric. I'd say our drives with torque converters and shafts are simpler to understand and maintain. The hydrostatic systems are usually very reliable but they are more complicated and maintenance is often more difficult. They seem to have be used in cramped quarters where it wasn't possible to find direct routes for shafts to reach the gearbox . In one case the engines and hydraulic pumps are actually on the ground floor and gearbox with the hydraulic motors are over the bull-wheel.

[liftmech]

missouriskier, on 13 April 2011 - 09:40 AM, said:

Thanks, liftmech, I figured that it would have to work that way. I do remember being at Copper one time on the Super Bee when it was started from a stop on diesel, and I was near the top where the engines are. It did really throw a cloud of smoke. The Panoramic Express wasn't quite as bad on smoke, but it dosen't have as long of a line or high of a rise, so it would take less power to get started. Also, they were just starting it to a slow speed, not back to full speed.

Also, one more question: Does the torque converter on a lift ever lock-up, like when it is running full speed? This would turn it into direct drive, which would make the lift more efficent. Cars and trucks do this, I just wondered if it works that way on lifts or not.

Last question first: I don't believe so. None of ours do, at any rate. First observation: Our lifts (including the Bee) start to slow as well. If they go straight to fast we've got an issue. Lifts should start to slow at all times, unless one is referring to a carpet or surface lift.

[mikest2]

We've got Rockford locking Torque Convertors on three of ours, I've also got Allison automatic transmissions on three, and a Voith turbo coupling on another.

[missouriskier]

Thanks to everyone that has replied, I did wonder if some lifts would have a hydrostatic drive other than the evac drives powered by a snowcat, and apparently there are.

mikest2, the lifts that you have with the locking torque converters and the Allison automatics, may I ask if they are detachable of fixed grip. I'm just wondering.
Also, how does a turbo coupling work? I am guessing that it must be similar to a torque converter.

[mikest2]

The Rockfords and Allisons are on detachables, the Voith is on a fixed grip (We've got one on a Tbar as well) we've also got several hydrostatic evac (third) drives that are a variable displacement pump mounted on a diesel engine, driving a motor either on a pinion driving a bullwheel ring gear, or coupling to a belt drive driving the gearbox input. The Voith is really just a fluid coupling.
 374_e_cr128_en_voith-fluid-couplings-constant-fill1.pdf (1.23MB)
Number of downloads: 39

[missouriskier]

mikest2, on 13 April 2011 - 07:53 PM, said:

The Rockfords and Allisons are on detachables, the Voith is on a fixed grip (We've got one on a Tbar as well) we've also got several hydrostatic evac (third) drives that are a variable displacement pump mounted on a diesel engine, driving a motor either on a pinion driving a bullwheel ring gear, or coupling to a belt drive driving the gearbox input. The Voith is really just a fluid coupling.
374_e_cr128_en_voith-fluid-couplings-constant-fill1.pdf

Thanks for attaching that brochure. It was helpful to be able to see a cross section. The Voth turbo coupling basically works the way that I thought it would.

[WPET]

I know it's been awhile since you posted this, but the Panoramic has 2 cummins diesel motors. Both motors have torque converters prior to the transfer case. [We also have some lifts that only use a transmission.] It can run off one or both through a transfer case that mechanically connects the same highspeed drive shaft from the 2 electric motors. Black smoke for the most part should only be seen on startup and speeding up just like an 18-wheeler would. The auxillary systems on all our lifts are designed to run all day, but for the most part we only run them for an hour a week or so. It would have been pure coincidence to run the diesel when it was windy, but since it is windy most days at the top of the mountain, there's a good chance of it being windy when we run it.
As far as a hydrostatic drive, we only have one lift with one of them and it is used as a tertiary (or evac) drive if both the electric and main diesel were to fail - it only runs at approx 50 feet per minute and is only used as a last resort.
I've been told some areas have their hydrostatic drives attached directly to their bullwheel to be an alternative to their primary backup diesel in case the gearbox were to fail. And also some areas that don't feel the cost of a diesel motor that is unlikely to get more than a 1000 hours for its entire life, will use a hydrostatic drive because they can drive a snow cat to it and run the lift off the PTO of the snowcat.

[liftmech]

Sounds like your Pano has the same setup as our bee. Can you run your diesels independently? We can (and have) but for evac only and not normal loading.

[missouriskier]

WPET, on 15 January 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

I know it's been awhile since you posted this, but the Panoramic has 2 cummins diesel motors. Both motors have torque converters prior to the transfer case. [We also have some lifts that only use a transmission.] It can run off one or both through a transfer case that mechanically connects the same highspeed drive shaft from the 2 electric motors. Black smoke for the most part should only be seen on startup and speeding up just like an 18-wheeler would. The auxillary systems on all our lifts are designed to run all day, but for the most part we only run them for an hour a week or so. It would have been pure coincidence to run the diesel when it was windy, but since it is windy most days at the top of the mountain, there's a good chance of it being windy when we run it.
As far as a hydrostatic drive, we only have one lift with one of them and it is used as a tertiary (or evac) drive if both the electric and main diesel were to fail - it only runs at approx 50 feet per minute and is only used as a last resort.
I've been told some areas have their hydrostatic drives attached directly to their bullwheel to be an alternative to their primary backup diesel in case the gearbox were to fail. And also some areas that don't feel the cost of a diesel motor that is unlikely to get more than a 1000 hours for its entire life, will use a hydrostatic drive because they can drive a snow cat to it and run the lift off the PTO of the snowcat.

Thanks for giving me a little more info on Panoramic. I guess that it is more common on larger lifts (more vertical rise, heavier 6 passenger chairs, or longer line) to have two engines, both for more power and for double backup.

[piotrek21]

Sorry for posting on an all thread, but I have a lingering questions. Why isn't the backup drive a diesel-electric unit? You know the kind that most locomotives use. Thanks!

[2milehi]

Cost - you have to add a generator to the diesel.