17 replies to this topic

[thairston96]

Why is it that Mt. Bachelor replaces some of their lifts after only about 20 years? They say that they are preventing lift breakdowns and everything, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for other resorts. Is it because of harsh weather why the lifts get so much wear and tear?

This post has been edited by thairston96: 02 April 2010 - 12:15 PM

[mikest2]

I suppose you buy anything with a projected lifespan, having said that ( I'm not pointing any fingers here ) if you don't stay ahead of maintenance in things like bushings in assemblies and detachable grips, bearings in sheaves and gearboxes you can get into very expensive replacements. ie: if you let a bushing wear to the point that the pin and bushing boss get damaged, you have to replace all three. If you don't stay ahead of bearing replacement in gearboxes, you can damage gears leading to catastophic failures ( Doppelmayr-Lohmann parts are minimum 8 months delivery ) Haul ropes have a finite lifespan (see splicers rope life calcs) If your detachable stations are out of whack, you might find yourself replacing all your grip jaws. Electrical equipment becomes obselete and needs to be upgraded. Last but certainly not least is the structural stuff, metal fatigue, corrosion, water intrusion, concrete damage. At some point it does become cheaper to start the life cycle all over again. How you maintain a lift, and the environment you operate it in will make huge differences in it's life.
That was $.25 worth...........Mike

[SkiBachelor]

I'm somewhat confused by this thread as I feel the lifts that Mt. Bachelor has replaced and has plans of replacing are quite old. Summit Express was replaced by a HSQ and the Pine Marten Express was an older HSQ and other high speed quads of this era have been replaced at other ski areas. I'm somewhat surprised Outback Express is being replaced as it has far less hours on it compared to what Pine Marten did which also ran in the summer.

However, I don't believe there are any plans to replace Skyliner, Sunrise or Sunshine with new HSQs.

[rniemi]

SkiBachelor, on 02 April 2010 - 07:31 PM, said:

I'm somewhat confused by this thread as I feel the lifts that Mt. Bachelor has replaced and has plans of replacing are quite old. Summit Express was replaced by a HSQ and the Pine Marten Express was an older HSQ and other high speed quads of this era have been replaced at other ski areas. I'm somewhat surprised Outback Express is being replaced as it has far less hours on it compared to what Pine Marten did which also ran in the summer.

However, I don't believe there are any plans to replace Skyliner, Sunrise or Sunshine with new HSQs.

Hi Cameron,

About Outback, I had lunch with several of the lift mechanics this last fall at the Pine Marten lodge. They had just come off a grease lap on Outback and stopped for lunch. Apparently all the mechanics hate Outback, as its a maintenance hog and has a lot of colorful quirks. It's the last chain conveyor left on the mountain and has some bizarre PLC programming and electrical quirks that no one has been able to straighten out (resulting in a complicated restart procedure after a normal stop that confuses most operators coming from other lifts on the mountain). We also had a fun discussion about the accel tire banks having an odd one-way sprag system that makes it impossible to run the lift in reverse. If an outgoing grip fails the grip force check, they have no choice but to run that carrier up/down the line to the far end.

This is the first I've heard of early Dopp's having one-way sprags on the tire banks, anyone else seen this?

We also had a lively discussion about the electrical and control quirks of the three remaining Yan triples that various people have been brought in to modify over the years, with no documentation remaining from each attempt. But, that's a story for another day (and maybe for the industry-only forums)..

Cheers,
-Ryan

[thairston96]

SkiBachelor, on 02 April 2010 - 07:31 PM, said:

I'm somewhat confused by this thread as I feel the lifts that Mt. Bachelor has replaced and has plans of replacing are quite old. Summit Express was replaced by a HSQ and the Pine Marten Express was an older HSQ and other high speed quads of this era have been replaced at other ski areas. I'm somewhat surprised Outback Express is being replaced as it has far less hours on it compared to what Pine Marten did which also ran in the summer.

However, I don't believe there are any plans to replace Skyliner, Sunrise or Sunshine with new HSQs.

I'll reprhase that post....Why do detachables not last nearly as long as fixed grips? There are tons of fixed grips I've been on that are over 40 years old. 20 years seems very young for a lift to be replaced.

[vons]

Speed + more mass (old fixgrip lifts tend to be double triple) + greater mechanical complexity = shorter life span

[thairston96]

So, my answer is...Mt. Bachelor is replacing some of their older detachables just because they're old for a detachable. I'm still a little confused, as other resorts have not done this to their early detachables (eg. Vail). Maybe they will in the upcoming years?

[vonroll101]

thairston96, on 03 April 2010 - 04:15 AM, said:

I'll reprhase that post....Why do detachables not last nearly as long as fixed grips? There are tons of fixed grips I've been on that are over 40 years old. 20 years seems very young for a lift to be replaced.

Here is my two cent's on the subject.I work on Vonroll type101 lifts.All Vonroll type101's are over 20 years old.Lifts nowdays are not built like they use to be.And i agree,20 years old for a lift is pretty young.Thank you.

[iceberg210]

vonroll101, on 03 April 2010 - 03:46 PM, said:

Here is my two cent's on the subject.I work on Vonroll type101 lifts.All Vonroll type101's are over 20 years old.Lifts nowdays are not built like they use to be.And i agree,20 years old for a lift is pretty young.Thank you.

Part of it may be more along the line of convenience, rather than quality. The lift is twenty some odd years old, and will probably be sold and run somewhere else for twenty some odd more years.

I think the reason may be more along the lines of the fact that Bachelor is looking at Outback and saying, you know the technology is older than other HSQ's we have, and it's a bit of an issue, for various reasons, Dopp is probably begging for work so if we should ever replace Outback we might as well do it now, while the prices are lower (given the fact that there's not much demand out there, and cost of raw materials, labor etc are lower now) why not replace it? If Powdr has the money, and wants to have that lift replaced at some point there is really no better time than now to do it. It sounds from the description of the lift that it's just a bit quirky, and that it'd be more convenient for the resort to have a more standardized group of lifts, (Outback is a bit of an odd ball) and this is the perfect time to do it.

Just cause something gets replaced quickly doesn't mean it's some horrible quality, after all half of the quality of something over the years is maintenance, and the environment it's in. Plus the fact that who knows, maybe Outback is in exceptional shape, it just has overstayed it's welcome at Bachelor. In fact the fact that other resorts haven't replaced their old HSQ's yet (like Vail, Solitude, etc) would suggest to me that they are great lifts with plenty of life in them, it's just in Bachelor's case this particular lift is one that doesn't mesh with their plans for the future.

[rniemi]

vonroll101, on 03 April 2010 - 03:46 PM, said:

... All Vonroll type101's are over 20 years old.Lifts nowdays are not built like they use to be. ...

Indeed, nowadays we have grips that don't rely on gravity for grip force, can safely be used on steep profiles and don't rely on the operators to manually launch carriers by pushing them down a sloped accel ramp. I'm not sure it's a fair comparison to compare VR101 sky rides with modern alpine detachables, the application and operating environment is completely different. True, VR101's were dead simple machines that'll probably last a long time, but weren't well suited to especially demanding or fast line speed applications. Outback runs around 1000 fpm, on a profile with some steep portions, generally complies with most modern ANSI standards, and does so in a severe icing environment with frequent high winds. I think this is an apples and oranges comparison, but yes, the VR101's are neat machines too.

-Ryan

[rniemi]

Minor corrections to my previous post. A lot of Youtube searching did turn up some VR101-based chairlifts in Europe that actually did have a conveyor chain and accel/decel tire banks (well, sorta, they didn't really appear to be actual tires). All the Youtube clips of VR101 sky ride installations in the US appear to be the same gravity launch I recall from all my VR101 rides in my youth, although some appear to at least have a cadencing gate before the accel ramp. However, I'm still of the opinion that comparison with an early Dopp detachable quad like Outback is an apples and oranges comparison.

I would also venture a (wild) guess that if an unmodified Yan detachable were used on a flat profile in an amusement park and run at similarly slow speeds, it would probably be as safe and long-lived as a VR101 perhaps.

-Ryan

This post has been edited by rniemi: 04 April 2010 - 05:13 AM

[Lift Kid]

I would like to point out the difference in operating conditions between Vail and Mt. Bachelor. Mt. Bachelor is known for its severe rime icing. Vail has no such problems. Just that one difference alone can mean the difference between a long life and a shorter one. Also, as Mike pointed out, maintenance is a huge deciding factor for the life of a lift. (I too am not pointing fingers, as I don't have first hand knowledge) If I recall correctly, Vail is extremely particular in the hiring of their maintenance crew. Vail only hires mechanics with a minimum of 2-3 years of experience at other ski resorts. I am not familiar, though, with Mt. Bachelor's crews. Also, Mt. Bachelor's current lift layout may not match their master plan. This could be a huge deciding factor. Vail seems to be satisfied with their lift system and there are very few apparent issues that I have noted.

As a closing statement, remember that every lift is a different machine. Every lift has its quirks, whether good or bad for the maintenance crew, and this can strongly influence a decision to replace the lifts.

[zeedotcom]

I am not familiar with Bachelor's system either, but to put it in a bit of perspective, think about modern cars.

There are lots of VW Beetle's driving around, and those will probably last "forever" as long as they continue to be maintained.
Almost any modern vehicle needs to be taken to a dealership for "qualified" repairs to be done, but you can see different "generations" in vehicles as well. A 1992 VW and 2002 VW may be very similar in purpose, size, and use, but very different to work on.

If everything else that you have is newer, and there are parts stocking overlaps, why not change to all the newer model so that everything is easier?
People trade in "almost new" cars all the time. There might not be anything wrong with it, it just doesn't work for them. If they can afford it, more power to them. It makes those "barely used" cars more affordable for the rest of us.

[thairston96]

Lift Kid, on 04 April 2010 - 11:17 AM, said:

I would like to point out the difference in operating conditions between Vail and Mt. Bachelor. Mt. Bachelor is known for its severe rime icing. Vail has no such problems. Just that one difference alone can mean the difference between a long life and a shorter one. Also, as Mike pointed out, maintenance is a huge deciding factor for the life of a lift. (I too am not pointing fingers, as I don't have first hand knowledge) If I recall correctly, Vail is extremely particular in the hiring of their maintenance crew. Vail only hires mechanics with a minimum of 2-3 years of experience at other ski resorts. I am not familiar, though, with Mt. Bachelor's crews. Also, Mt. Bachelor's current lift layout may not match their master plan. This could be a huge deciding factor. Vail seems to be satisfied with their lift system and there are very few apparent issues that I have noted.

As a closing statement, remember that every lift is a different machine. Every lift has its quirks, whether good or bad for the maintenance crew, and this can strongly influence a decision to replace the lifts.

I know Vail at bachelor are completely different. I was just using Vail as an example as they have similar mid 80's Doppelmayr detachables. As you can see in my first post I was predicting weather as a reason for Bachelors replacements.

Anyway, thanks for all the info guys

This post has been edited by thairston96: 05 April 2010 - 03:47 PM

[liftmech]

We also had a fun discussion about the accel tire banks having an odd one-way sprag system that makes it impossible to run the lift in reverse.

I'm not totally positive about the old chain-contour Doppelmayrs, but the Pomas also have the one-way sprag bearings on some tires. This is to allow the chain to pick up the chair without dragging the grip through the tires (the chain runs slightly faster than the last few tires). Probably what Outback has going on.

[rniemi]

liftmech, on 07 April 2010 - 06:16 PM, said:

We also had a fun discussion about the accel tire banks having an odd one-way sprag system that makes it impossible to run the lift in reverse.

I'm not totally positive about the old chain-contour Doppelmayrs, but the Pomas also have the one-way sprag bearings on some tires. This is to allow the chain to pick up the chair without dragging the grip through the tires (the chain runs slightly faster than the last few tires). Probably what Outback has going on.

This seems plausible, but does raise another question. If anyone here has worked on old chain-conveyor Dopps, what was the procedure when an outgoing carrier's grip fails the grip force check, since Dopp detachables only check grip force as carriers leave the terminal? Or were the one-way sprags only used with the older Dopp grips that had spring failure drop dogs striking a brittle bar (somewhere other than the outbound side?). Was the reverse run procedure to run a faulty grip back into the terminal only introduced on newer tire-contour Dopps? It seems odd that the original procedure would be to run a faulty grip up the line (presumably having stopped and evac'd any passengers from that carrier if it is occupied and stopped close enough to the ground).

-Ryan

This post has been edited by rniemi: 08 April 2010 - 05:50 AM

[Aussierob]

rniemi, on 02 April 2010 - 08:21 PM, said:

Hi Cameron,

About Outback, I had lunch with several of the lift mechanics this last fall at the Pine Marten lodge. They had just come off a grease lap on Outback and stopped for lunch. Apparently all the mechanics hate Outback, as its a maintenance hog and has a lot of colorful quirks. It's the last chain conveyor left on the mountain and has some bizarre PLC programming and electrical quirks that no one has been able to straighten out (resulting in a complicated restart procedure after a normal stop that confuses most operators coming from other lifts on the mountain). We also had a fun discussion about the accel tire banks having an odd one-way sprag system that makes it impossible to run the lift in reverse. If an outgoing grip fails the grip force check, they have no choice but to run that carrier up/down the line to the far end.

This is the first I've heard of early Dopp's having one-way sprags on the tire banks, anyone else seen this?

We also had a lively discussion about the electrical and control quirks of the three remaining Yan triples that various people have been brought in to modify over the years, with no documentation remaining from each attempt. But, that's a story for another day (and maybe for the industry-only forums)..

Cheers,
-Ryan

We have three of the '87 model CLD-260's the same as Outback and a few of the Vail lifts. These are Wizard, Solar and 7th Heaven with 56,000, 53,000 and 40,000 hours respectively. We maintain these lifts well and they probably will last forever as long as we can get parts. We have had structural analysis done and the concensus is if it hasn't fatigued yet it's not going to. We are upgrading things as the budget allows and I only imagine these will get replaced when either parts are no longer avaiable or a different kind of lift or location is required. e.g. A gondola on Blackcomb to finish the P2P loop.
As for the lift design, the beauty is in the simplicity. The lift CAN be run in reverse with the one way clutches, you just need to pull the chairs back through these tires until they're in the chain. We use the same grip force procedure as everyone else. As for the start up sequence, I fixed that with a timer about 15 years ago. It took all of half an hour. These lifts now run the same as all the others. To be honest, these are the least quirky lifts we own. On the weather front, 7th heaven gets the worst of it here. I'ts not as bad as Mt.Bachelor, but pretty severe at times just the same.

[rniemi]

Aussierob, on 08 April 2010 - 07:04 AM, said:

We have three of the '87 model CLD-260's the same as Outback and a few of the Vail lifts. These are Wizard, Solar and 7th Heaven with 56,000, 53,000 and 40,000 hours respectively. We maintain these lifts well and they probably will last forever as long as we can get parts. We have had structural analysis done and the concensus is if it hasn't fatigued yet it's not going to. We are upgrading things as the budget allows and I only imagine these will get replaced when either parts are no longer avaiable or a different kind of lift or location is required. e.g. A gondola on Blackcomb to finish the P2P loop.
As for the lift design, the beauty is in the simplicity. The lift CAN be run in reverse with the one way clutches, you just need to pull the chairs back through these tires until they're in the chain. We use the same grip force procedure as everyone else. As for the start up sequence, I fixed that with a timer about 15 years ago. It took all of half an hour. These lifts now run the same as all the others. To be honest, these are the least quirky lifts we own. On the weather front, 7th heaven gets the worst of it here. I'ts not as bad as Mt.Bachelor, but pretty severe at times just the same.

Hi Rob,

Interesting, thanks for the CLD-260 insight.

-Ryan