13 replies to this topic

[Tyson]

rumours from europe are Bartholet has sold a detach somewhere in us. Is Partek involved?

Any thoughts on their chairs

ty

[Lift Dinosaur]

Never heard of them...but I'm old and hard of hearing.
With the current market, the Euro, and shipping costs they must be giving it away.
My $0.03 (converted)

Dino

[SkiBachelor]

Lift Dinosaur, on 25 March 2010 - 05:30 PM, said:

Never heard of them...but I'm old and hard of hearing.
With the current market, the Euro, and shipping costs they must be giving it away.
My $0.03 (converted)

Dino

Bartholet is BMF Lifts.

http://www.bmf-ag.ch/en/

I will try and send of an E-mail to the company later tonight.

[iceberg210]

As has been said above in the thread this would be mildly suprising to say the least. Not only are we talking about entering a new market, but entering a new market when the euro is fairly strong and shipping costs are not really low. I suppose if it was an east coast ski resort it might make more sense, as the shipping wouldn't be as far, and parts would be closer, but even at that I'm still surprised at this if it's to happen.

Plus I wonder how BMF got in, I mean for as big of a market as the US is, I'd think Dopp and Poma would both be incredibly protective of it, to the point that they'd make sure they at least matched or beat the price of BMF. Beyond that if I'm a resort why would I try something completely new, with product support an ocean away when I have two companies here already that I am probably much more familiar with. Beyond that if I recall correctly BMF just got into the detachable market, and only recently installed their first detachable model (in France if I remember correctly?) so why would a resort buy a product that is not necessarily proven on the market. Both Poma and Dopp have long records of safety in detachables, where BMF's is very short, which not saying they won't have a good record, or that they aren't safe lifts, but I'd think having a track record would be a definite boon in the decision making of a resort. Beyond this I wonder what the insurance companies might think of having to insure a new make of lift, perhaps it's not an issue, but the again I'd think they'd want to see a long track record, which once again BMF lacks.

Interesting though if it's true that we'd be finally getting another player in the lift industry here in the US.

[SkiBachelor]

The Euro is actually pretty weak right now, although a lot of the components (e.g. towers), could be build here in North America and then shipped to their destination, while the terminal components arrive by boat. This is what Leitner did when it entered the North American market and teamed up with Blue Mountain lifts, so BMF could have teamed up with Partek.

However, BMF's investors may be trying to create market share and to do that, you may need to sell your product at a loss or at least break-even. While you may think this is 'predatory pricing,' which is illegal in the U.S., companies are allowed to do it when they are either new to the market or introducing a new product to compete with an existing product or service.

[iceberg210]

True that the Euro is at least weaker than it has been, nevertheless it is still stronger than the dollar, and after this whole Greek mess figure's itself out the Euro will probably start climbing again. All of these factors I'd think would make BMF lifts more difficult to be price competitive, but perhaps they just have great effiency gains, or are able to compete on price better for whatever reason, I don't know.

While it's true that BMF may have engaged in real low pricing to get into the market, I'm still surprised that neither Dopp or Poma would counter in order to protect the market. At any rate if BMF partnered with Partek I'd be shocked because I can't imagine that Dopp didn't make Hagan sign a non-compete contract when they bought him out a few years back. While stranger things have happened, and I'm not saying it's not possible, it's one of those things that if it did happen I'd be thinking there might be a lawsuit coming down the road.

[zeedotcom]

One thing that I have learned is that there are a few different kinds of resorts. Big resorts like Vail, Squaw, and Killington have corporate bottom line points to watch out for. When you start dealing with places that are privately owned, a lot of things change. All it takes is for one resort owner who has some extra cash (probably from a non ski business of course) and had an issue with a Dopp they had at one point and then had an issue with a Poma later to say "Screw them both." Cutting off the nose to spite the face isn't something that some of these guys are above. At small to medium sized resorts, decisions don't always have to make sense.

Beyond that, anything different is always interesting to take a look at. Maybe they can broaden the market, create some competition, and force something new and unexpected on the innovation front.

[iceberg210]

Good points Zeet.

Another thing to think about is that perhaps BMF will go after the big stuff like trams and such before going after chairs and what not. I've heard that resorts with Gareventa trams don't actually really go through the office in Salt Lake for parts and service, but rather deal directly with the folks back in Europe. In that case the advantage of having a local US office is negated if you're having to deal with Europe anyway so why not give BMF a try especially if you can get really good pricing thanks to BMF trying to enter the market.

[skierdude9450]

It'll be cool to see if anything comes of this. It seems that service would be a big issue. Both L-P and D-CTEC have local service facilities throughout North America. It would seem unnecessarily expensive to go out of the continent for service, but then again if they team up with Partek that could be solved.

[Lift Dinosaur]

Tyson, on 25 March 2010 - 05:01 PM, said:

rumours from europe

...can sure spark a lot of speculation...

Dino

[vons]

I doubt Partek would be a partner for such an arrangement since it is now a Doppelmayr subsidiary, but there are numerous firms outside of the ski lift business with the resources and many are currently short on work, but this is all just speculation, lets focus on what is known to be.

[seilbahnbilder.ch]

Okey, some adjustments and additions:

- BMF is a Swiss manufacturer. Switzerland is not part of the European Union and we have still our own currency. So the actual exchange rate Euro/Dollar doesn't matter ;) But the Dollar became very weak in comparison with the Swiss franc.

- BMF has already built two detachable sixpacks in France and they are going to built at least another sixpack chair in France and a highspeed quad chair in Switzerland next summer.

- Beside this BMF has built several areal trams and fixed grip chairlifts in Switzerland and South America.

[mthornton]

skierdude9450, on 26 March 2010 - 02:05 PM, said:

Both L-P and D-CTEC have local service facilities throughout North America. It would seem unnecessarily expensive to go out of the continent for service...

An additional manufacturer in detachable lifts would be most welcome in N.A. The existing manufacturers NA service facilities hardly could be considered as existing throughout North America. For us in western Canada, getting Dopp parts out of St. Jerome PQ is painfully slow at best due to the shipping logistics (not Dopp's fault, I guess). Stuff may as well come from Europe.
A new manufacturer competing for NA business would be good for everyone (even if another European mfr.). Competition drives technology & puts downward pressure on price.

Ideally the day will again come when a North-American lift manufacturer again throws it's hat into the ring. Using NA manufactured structure, grips/carriers, drive components & controls. The 2-mfr, exclusive European situation we presently have is hurting us as our older lifts wear out &
need replacement. At present LP & Dopp have us by the balls, and the present situation is hardly competitive from a pricing perspective.

M

[Outback]

Lift Dinosaur, on 26 March 2010 - 02:30 PM, said:

...can sure spark a lot of speculation...

Dino

Whooo hooo if they only knew!