43 replies to this topic

[Emax]

mthornton, on 30 January 2010 - 01:36 PM, said:

Today's cars being so high-tech, makes me hanker back to my youth.

Had a high-school buddy with a 67' Ford econoline Van... the type with the engine sitting between the driver and the co-pilot's seat. The van required 2 people to operate.... yes it had shag carpet.

The drivers job was to steer & operate the brake pedal, both of which still worked.
The co-pilot's job was more complex.
- to start the motor by using a gloved hand to choke the carb, while inserting a screw-driver across the starter leads.
- top operate the throttle mechanism by hand while driver negotiating through busy city traffic
a back-fire would occasionally shoot flames to the interior roof of the van, so you had to keep your head back.
- operate the automatic transmission by pulling on various strings that led beneath the floor-boards
- put out any small fires that might occur (these were routine... no need to stop)
- stop the motor by pulling the coil-wire off the distributor (had to be careful here!)

yes the exhaust leaked. But usually the van interior was so full of another type of smoke... we didn't really notice much.

Smoked salmon, smoked beef, smoked pork... smoked people! All are examples of the best of their category. Hats off to your "field expedients". I'm sure you realize that those weren't the good-old-days - the present ones are. If the average IQ can catch up with advancing technology, the "future" may yet come true! If not, we'll likely go the way of the Roman Empire.

This post has been edited by Emax: 30 January 2010 - 06:24 PM

[Peter]

'Stop driving' recalled Toyotas'
Secretary Ray LaHood urged Toyota owners to stop driving recalled cars and get them fixed.


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Department of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood told lawmakers Wednesday that Toyota owners should stop driving cars affected by the recall and bring them back to the company.

"My advice is if anyone owns one of these vehicles stop driving it and take it to Toyota dealer because they believe they have a fix for it," LaHood told a House committee.

Rep. Tom Latham, R-Iowa, had asked if the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration should broadcast information about how to handle a sticky gas pedal -- whether the driver should shift into neutral, brake or turn off the car.

LaHood said that safety information has been publicized, but his own advice would be to not drive the recalled cars at all.

LaHood also acknowledged that NHTSA is investigating Toyotas not just for problems with gas pedals, but for problems with the electrical systems, as well.
0:00 /5:47Toyota exec confident in pedal fix

"We will also be investigating the electronic components that are in these cars and if they're not safe, we'll have Toyota take a look at that," LaHood said.

He said that Toyota has been cooperative in the investigations.

Toyota has recalled millions of vehicles in recent weeks due to problems with sticking gas pedals that cause the vehicles to accelerate out of control and later halted the sale of the eight vehicles involved in the recall.

Company officials announced on Monday they had found a solution that involved reinforcing the pedal assembly with a part that is being rushed to dealerships. To top of page

[Emax]

A more recent evaluation. Hats off to the skilift controls designers who did NOT fall into this pit.

Robert L. Mitchell Reality Check

More posts | Read bio

February 5, 2010 - 12:55 P.M.
Toyota's lesson: Software can be unsafe at any speed
26 comments

• TAGS:acceleration, auto, braking, bug, enterprise, glitch, prius, software, software quality, Toyota
• IT TOPICS:Development, Emerging Technology, Software

One week ago, as news reports attributed Toyota's sudden acceleration problem to a sticking accelerator pedal or a floor mat issue, my mechanic rolled his eyes. "You know, those systems are all electronic," he said.

The problem, he was willing to bet, could be summed up in one word: software.

Sure enough, this week investigators are focusing in on electronics as a potential culprit behind Toyota's woes. Meanwhile, the auto maker has admitted that it has experienced problems with braking control software used in its Prius line and has since updated the software to correct the problem. So far, the model is only being recalled in Japan.

Many drivers would be shocked to know that, when it comes to automotive controls, drivers increasingly fly by wire. A few years ago it was Airbus that ushered in an era in which electronics replaced direct hydraulic controls in airplanes. Automobiles have since followed. Gone are the days when the accelerator or brake pedal were directly connected to the throttle by a physical connector, such as a cable. Today for many makes - not just Toyota - electronics act as the intermediary. Most drivers are still blissfully unaware of this sea change in how cars operate.

It's ironic that Toyota, the leader in building quality automobiles, may have become the poster child for poor software quality. It probably won't be the last auto manufacturer to suffer this fate. Unfortunately for Toyota, software development hasn't coalesced around a Deming to instill the same discipline in the manufacturing of software that made Toyota so successful in automotive hardware.

That culture of quality has largely been missing in commercial software development, where most software licenses include outrageous disclaimers that absolve the developer of any responsibility for harm created by their products, which are typically offered "as is."

The problem is much bigger than just Toyota. Electronics systems - and the networks that connect them - now make up 40% of the value of the typical vehicle. The interaction between these systems are complex. In the brakes alone software controls the anti-lock braking systems, stability control - and the Prius includes a system that converts the energy from braking into power to recharges the batteries.

Some automotive software glitches are merely annoying. For example, my 2005 Subaru Forester suffers from a computer glitch. Whenever the master computer is reset (which seems to be required every time I take the car in for service) the vehicle forgets how to deliver the correct air/fuel mix. In the 20 minutes or so the computer takes to relearn the correct settings the driver is subjected to constant stalling - which in my case happened in the middle of a busy rotary at rush hour. According to my dealer, Subaru has been unable to identify the exact source of the problem in the software. The solution? The dealer must run the vehicle long enough for the problem to self correct before I pick it up.

Other issues are more deadly. In an acceleration incident the driver has seconds to react, particularly in a highway situation. Drivers who don't realize that they're flying by wire may waste precious time trying to pry up the pedal rather than switching to neutral and pulling to the side of the road. "It's scary," my mechanic says.

He also worries about the possibilities for hacking new vehicles. "What if someone pirates something on there?" he asks. There are no antivirus scans for vehicles. What would happen if a terrorist was able to get an insider into the supply chain and insert dormant code into each new vehicle that on a specific date and time would disable braking or cause sudden acceleration in thousands of vehicles?

It's easy to understand that concern. For mechanics, 40% of the vehicle amounts to a black box. They aren't trained to be systems analysts. They must rely on other computers - another black box - to diagnose a wide range of complex issues that crop up with vehicle electronics.

Auto makers, on the other hand, now function more like systems integrators. Dozens of suppliers provide sub-assemblies, many of which come with their own silicon - and those interconnected systems are becoming more elaborate.

Can Toyota elevate software quality to the same level that it achieved with hardware? If not, customers may start to feel that modern fly by wire vehicles are unsafe at any speed.

[Emax]

I am an admitted anal-retentive perfectionist, not an expert on software strategy - but Apple's Steve Wozniak is. READ THIS:

http://www.cbsnews.c...ry6169804.shtml

[Emax]

reinforcement:

http://blogs.compute...fe_at_any_speed

[spunkyskier01]

I will not claim to be an expert on this issue, but I thought car and driver delivered some interesting commentary on this topic.

http://www.caranddri...ivers-editorial

[Andoman]

spunkyskier01, on 17 February 2010 - 08:13 PM, said:

I will not claim to be an expert on this issue, but I thought car and driver delivered some interesting commentary on this topic.

http://www.caranddri...ivers-editorial

Car and driver would make sweet love to everyone on toyota's executive board if they could, simply stating "We're no Toyota apologists" doesn't negate that fact (this is from simple observation during doctors visits). From what I've read in the past car and driver would blame GM or Ford for toyota's problems if they thought they wouldn't loose advertising dollars from it. Their claim people are too stupid to drive is true I won't argue that in the least and that fact can be spread across all manufacturers but it doesn't account for the cars jumping out from under people, it isn't happening to any other manufacturers that we know about. I also agree with C&D, you or I would simply hit the brake, turn off the car, or shift to neutral but the fact is the car shouldn't do it and it sounds like C&D is trying to skirt that fact. My main problem with it is toyota has a history of not recalling vehicles with problems. You can search google and see all the message board full of angry toyota owners (my favorite is the tundra's rusting out from under you within a few years of ownership). I think people can make a case for the company not fixing products that have faults until someone calls 911 and they record the whole incident to the horrific conclusion, and that is coming back to bite them in the rump right now.

I'll also admit I hate most rice burners (minus cool/fun to drive cars like subaru, they make AWD cars and a bad ass wrx), but I just don't see anything special about them they seem like stripped down ford escort buzz boxes that people are willing to pay more money for and I don't get it (granted I'm from michigan and my post is being monitored as I type, ahhh got to go they're coming for me ).

[Emax]

spunkyskier01, on 17 February 2010 - 08:13 PM, said:

I will not claim to be an expert on this issue, but I thought car and driver delivered some interesting commentary on this topic.

http://www.caranddri...ivers-editorial

Yes, this is interesting commentary - though a bit slanted. No matter - this whole issue has turned into a media circus... one that no doubt will be attended by legions of lawyers. Even though I posted my "raised eyebrow" regarding "unintended acceleration", it sickens me to see this maker of (previously) utterly reliable automobiles trashed in such a manner - largely by people who understand little or nothing about the root issue.

My eyebrow was raised only by this first evidence of the risks associated with a head-first dive into large-scale control of a vehicle by software. As a group of people who make a living dealing with machine control, we know better than most that things can go strangely askew - that we'd best be prepared for unimagined failures.

Sure - staying calm and exercising common sense when a car surprises us will always avoid disaster. But intelligence and common sense is not universal among the millions of drivers with whom we share the roads. Cars are sold with a huge array of built-in distractions - that many folks consider more important than the serious business of controlling the vehicle. These are the people who get into trouble when cars misbehave - unfortunately, we must share the highways with them... and the automakers (all of them) are obliged to sell their products to them. This being the case, all vehicle software must be fail-safe.

[Andoman]

Got a good laugh out of this and had to share.

http://toyotasimulator.com/

[Emax]

Andoman, on 07 March 2010 - 05:55 AM, said:

Got a good laugh out of this and had to share.

http://toyotasimulator.com/

I guess there is some fun in that, but it pokes that fun at a company that is bearing the brunt of a problem that goes far beyond their own corporate boundary. Toyota deserves a better shake. The original point of this thread was to point out the "tip of the iceberg" with respect to possible "fly-by-wire" problems in automobiles - not to run down the company currently holding the bag.

Microprocessor applications always seem to be rushed to market prior to being proven - with varying results. Most flops and miscues result in no more than consumers being irritated with their shiny new toy. When it comes to trains, planes and automobiles (not to mention ski lifts), however, the stakes are much higher. Much closer scrutiny is in order - scrutiny by people who are not cloistered in a world of "ones and zeros".

Programmers routinely add extra logic just because they can - up to the limits of the chips they're working with. Questionable "features" abound in nearly all computer driven products - the work of over-active imagination in the wee hours of the morning, I suspect. Too much red Bull and too many Fritos, perhaps. As a result, we now have microwave ovens that are so difficult to get underway that I often resort to the cooktop instead; telephones with so many "features" that making a simple call can be difficult. (As a side note, American drivers do not need any more distractions in their cars - there are already far too many).

With the preceding in mind, just what is the user's benefit from a servo-controlled, computer-linked engine throttle? There isn't any. But it does make cruise control much easier for the manufacturer to implement. I speak only of the air butterflies here - not fuel injection, cam timing, ignition timing. All of those systems benefit greatly from microprocessor regulation - more power per engine size, far better fuel economy, lower emissions. But these systems do not control the car's response to operator input - they can only optimize the engine for a given situation. At worst, a failure in any of these supervisory loops can only result in user aggravation and possible machine damage. Not so when it comes to the control of engine air - remove all inhibition of air flow into an engine, and you'd better hang on tight. Cut off air flow, and the thing stops instantly. If a designer wishes to servo control the driver's only real link to the engine - its air flow - then he'd better be ready for the kind of problems we are seeing now.

This post has been edited by Emax: 07 March 2010 - 03:18 PM

[mthornton]

Am I the only guy thinking this? (see attached photo)

Attached File(s)

•  yota_estop.JPG (51.95K)
  Number of downloads: 64

[Andoman]

or this.....
 toyotaWL.jpg (65.3K)
Number of downloads: 45

[skiersage]

....and the plot thickens. Something tells me that this whole debacle is not going to end soon.

Feds to probe cause of runaway Prius in California
Source:http://news.yahoo.co...s_runaway_prius

Quote

EL CAJON, Calif. – A Toyota Prius that sped out of control on a California freeway was towed to a dealership Tuesday while federal and company inspectors converged on the car to determine whether a stuck gas pedal was to blame.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration sent two investigators to examine the car after Monday's incident, said Olivia Alair, a spokeswoman for the Department of Transportation, which oversees NHTSA. Toyota Motor Corp. spokesman Brian Lyons said the automaker is sending three of its own technicians to investigate.

James Sikes, 61, of Jacumba, told authorities that the accelerator malfunctioned Monday as he drove his Prius on Interstate 8 in San Diego County. The car reached 94 mph during the 20 minutes before a California Highway Patrol officer helped get the Prius driver to slow down and turn off the engine.

The CHP held the car overnight but it was towed to the dealership Tuesday, CHP Officer Brian Pennings said.

"There's no collision, so our investigation's done," Pennings said. "There's no crime. ... We're just glad it ended safely."

The incident comes while Toyota is fighting fears over the safety of its vehicles, which had been revered for their safety and reliability.

It was about 12 miles from where Sikes' Prius started speeding where a deadly crash last year sparked scrutiny into the Japanese company's vehicles.

CHP Officer Mark Saylor, his wife, her brother and the couple's daughter died after their Lexus' accelerator became trapped by a wrong-size floor mat on a freeway in La Mesa. The loaner car hit a sport utility vehicle and burst into flames.

Since then, Toyota has recalled some 8.5 million vehicles worldwide — more than 6 million in the United States — because of acceleration problems in multiple models and braking issues in the Prius. Regulators have linked 52 deaths to crashes allegedly caused by accelerator problems.

On Monday, Toyota assembled a group of experts at its North American headquarters in Torrance, Calif., to refute studies by an Illinois professor who revved Toyota engines simply by short-circuiting the wiring. Toyota's experts say the experiments were done under conditions that would never happen on the road.

The company has blamed the issue on mechanical problems and floor mats that can wedge the gas pedal.

"It wasn't the floor mat. The floor mat we have has hooks on it," Sikes' wife, Patty, said in a telephone interview Tuesday.

Patty Sikes said the family's 2008 Prius appeared to have an accelerator malfunction a few weeks ago but it was brief.

"It took off for a second, and then it just stopped. It was like a little hiccup or something," she said.

The family got a recall notice and took it to Toyota of El Cajon about two weeks ago but the dealership refused to examine the car, Patty Sikes said.

"They said it must be a mistake because we weren't on the (recall) list," she said.

The dealership declined to comment and referred requests for comment to Toyota's corporate representatives.

Toyota spokesman John Hanson confirmed that the 2008 Prius is part of Toyota's recall to address unintended acceleration due to floor mat entrapment. The recall, affecting 5.6 million vehicles, was first announced in October.

Hanson said a recall of this magnitude takes time, and Toyota first sends a preliminary notice to owners saying their vehicles are subject to a recall. A second notice comes later detailing how and where the vehicle can be fixed.

"I believe what could have happened is Mr. Sikes could have received his preliminary notification which says, 'Hello, your car is going to be recalled, and we will notify you when to bring it in.'"

At a news conference Monday, Sikes said he called 911 about 1:30 p.m. Monday after accelerating to pass another car on Interstate 8 near La Posta.

"I pushed the gas pedal to pass a car and it did something kind of funny. ... It jumped and it just stuck there," he said.

A patrol car pulled alongside the Prius and the officer told Sikes over a loudspeaker to push the brake pedal to the floor and apply the emergency brake.

The braking, coupled with a steep rise on the freeway, slowed the car to about 50 mph. Sikes then shut off the engine and the car coasted to a stop. CHP Officer Todd Neibert then moved his vehicle in front of the Prius to block it as a precaution.

Neibert is a 14-year veteran but he had no special training in halting runaway cars, Pennings said.

"Officers are trained to adapt and overcome. You can't train for every type of situation," he said. "Fortunately, the first thing he tried worked."

[Allan]

mthornton, on 07 March 2010 - 08:34 PM, said:

Am I the only guy thinking this? (see attached photo)

I do like that idea! How about this: Should car brakes be re-engineered to be spring applied and hydraulically released so they would work without the assist of the engine? Shut the car off & the brakes apply. I would imagine there would be a whole host of logistical issues that would come with my idea; I didn't say it was a good one!

[Emax]

Allan, on 10 March 2010 - 08:48 PM, said:

I do like that idea! How about this: Should car brakes be re-engineered to be spring applied and hydraulically released so they would work without the assist of the engine? Shut the car off & the brakes apply. I would imagine there would be a whole host of logistical issues that would come with my idea; I didn't say it was a good one!

Trucks and buses have used this system for a long time - though (I believe) only for emergency and/or holding brakes. They use air pressure to withhold the pads, though. (the word withhold always looks wrong when written). I'm thinking that fine modulation of braking force would be a difficult problem in such a system - but maybe not. The notion of an automatic "ignition-off / brakes-on" scheme seems very attractive.

As a personal matter, I do not like any sort of "automation" in a vehicle braking system - not even anti-lock... maybe especially not anti-lock. If a car is poorly designed (as to weight distribution and transfer), I suppose that rear-only anti-lock has a legitimate place - but not front. If a driver is so poor as to lock his front wheels in a turn, then maybe he deserves an accident.

[CH3skier]

mthornton, on 07 March 2010 - 08:34 PM, said:

Am I the only guy thinking this? (see attached photo)

Another way to stop

Attached File(s)

•  Chute-image.jpg (17.1K)
  Number of downloads: 37

[Emax]

Is this the same device offered in the early eighties for the Audi Quattro? How about the assorted American cars that have "mysteriously accelerated" - does it match both U.S. and metric mounting pads? And finally, does the parachute pass the U.S. minimum standards for run-away vehicles?

This post has been edited by Emax: 17 March 2010 - 05:11 PM

[k2skier]

This is completely out of control, every hiccup in any Toyota, MUST have an accelerator problem, especially this nut case.

James Sikes, Owner of Runaway Prius, Is Heavily in Debt, May Have Faked the Whole Thing

http://blogs.seattle...r_runaway_p.php

According to an investigation by motorhead blog Jalopnik, Sikes and his wife filed for bankruptcy in 2008 with $700,000 in debt. Including over $20,000 owed on the leased Prius he claims has a mind of its own.

Sikes responded to Jalopnik with a heavily exclamated screed about the "SLANDEROUS" media. Which is ironic considering he's loaned his story to every major outlet that will have him, even while they've largely ignored the relevant fact that Sikes has filed a number of shady insurance claims in the past. And the equally irrelevant, thought tittilating, angle that Sikes owns and operates an adult swingers web site (SFW).

[Emax]

Agreed - this guy is certifiable - and there will be other "hopeful" candidates for the same free pass. May they all have a happy heart attack.

Every time there arises a problem that needs a solution, hoards of useless 2-legged protoplasm seek to benefit from it.

I'm organizing a lay-sniper organization that will concentrate on eliminating vermin lawyers. Who's game? (pun fully intended)

[mthornton]

For the safety of all who use the road, any drive-by-wire vehicle should indeed have an emergency shut-down. This should not be left up to the manufacturers. Toyota is presently in the process of demonstrating why this decision should not be left up to them. Doing a damn good job!

An emergency stop on a control system (say an air-compressor or a ski-lift) will typically
> assume complete failure of any or all programmable elements (PLC or micro-controller or network)
> all digital outputs revert to "OFF" status. Power is removed from the output current-sources.
> safe shutdown of power-drive (main contactor drop when safe to do so)
> safe application of braking system within safe deceleration limits

A car is neither an air-compressor or a ski-lift. We hurtle ourselves down a crowded freeway, in assumed co-operation with other motorists. In the course of a vehicle emergency shutdown, it would be very dangerous if a vehicle were to suddenly slow down, or if power were lost such that the typical characteristics of the steering or braking were to change. Better to just loose driving power & yet maintain safe control.

Perhaps an emergency vehicle shutdown would remove power from the fuel injection system over what would be required to idle the motor, and yet leaving enough engine power for the steering & braking systems.

I just ordered myself a brand-new truck... with a standard transmission. I guess I can always just put it in neutral.

Solving the problems of the world.... one bottle of rum at a time.
M