43 replies to this topic

[Emax]

Anyone own a Toyota that is involved in the recent recall?
Do these cars use a direct mechanical linkage for throttling or the recently more-common "fly-by-wire" solution?

I have a sinking suspicion that the latter is the case - and further that the first recall for "loose floormats" was actually the same problem as this new one. Toyota claims to be unsure of the cause as of this writing. I personally am not so sure about that.
We may be seeing the first instance of a hazardous software malfunction in the new breed of automobiles. I'm betting that is the case.

More later...

[skier2]

Emax, on 22 January 2010 - 08:47 AM, said:

Anyone own a Toyota that is involved in the recent recall?
Do these cars use a direct mechanical linkage for throttling or the recently more-common "fly-by-wire" solution?

I have a sinking suspicion that the latter is the case - and further that the first recall for "loose floormats" was actually the same problem as this new one. Toyota claims to be unsure of the cause as of this writing. I personally am not so sure about that.
We may be seeing the first instance of a hazardous software malfunction in the new breed of automobiles. I'm betting that is the case.

More later...

The problem is that if they are fly-by-wire, there is no back-up system to step in when things run amok. In real fully fly-by-wire systems, like in modern airplanes, there is a secondary control method. Maybe someone could have come up with a "stop the fu****g car if it is careening out of control" exception in the programming

[Emax]

skier2, on 22 January 2010 - 04:05 PM, said:

The problem is that if they are fly-by-wire, there is no back-up system to step in when things run amok. In real fully fly-by-wire systems, like in modern airplanes, there is a secondary control method. Maybe someone could have come up with a "stop the fu****g car if it is careening out of control" exception in the programming

My thoughts exactly. Chances are their programming team didn't come from Frey Equipment.

[skiersage]

Emax, on 22 January 2010 - 08:47 AM, said:

Anyone own a Toyota that is involved in the recent recall?
Do these cars use a direct mechanical linkage for throttling or the recently more-common "fly-by-wire" solution?

Don't just about all vehicles use throttles that are electronically controlled these days? I know that is the case with all the cars that I have driven.

I have a sinking suspicion that the latter is the case - and further that the first recall for "loose floormats" was actually the same problem as this new one. Toyota claims to be unsure of the cause as of this writing. I personally am not so sure about that.
We may be seeing the first instance of a hazardous software malfunction in the new breed of automobiles. I'm betting that is the case.

More later...

I remember hearing about this accident. The story I heard was that the accelerator got stuck in the floor mat and would not let go. The drivers of the car pressed on the brakes but was not enough to stop the engine which was running at full capacity. If they would have just programmed the the vehicle so that pressing on the brake would disengage the accelerator then this whole problem could have been avoided. Seems more like a design flaw more than a software malfunction but I could be mistaken.

[Andoman]

skiersage, on 22 January 2010 - 04:22 PM, said:

I remember hearing about this accident. The story I heard was that the accelerator got stuck in the floor mat and would not let go. The drivers of the car pressed on the brakes but was not enough to stop the engine which was running at full capacity. If they would have just programmed the the vehicle so that pressing on the brake would disengage the accelerator then this whole problem could have been avoided. Seems more like a design flaw more than a software malfunction but I could be mistaken.

That's the proposed fix, the dealerships are installing a new module to the computer that tells the engine to go to a idle if the accelerator is engaged (or computer thinks it's on the floor) and the brake is pushed at the same time. Bad news for little old ladies .

[Emax]

skiersage, on 22 January 2010 - 04:22 PM, said:

I remember hearing about this accident. The story I heard was that the accelerator got stuck in the floor mat and would not let go. The drivers of the car pressed on the brakes but was not enough to stop the engine which was running at full capacity. If they would have just programmed the the vehicle so that pressing on the brake would disengage the accelerator then this whole problem could have been avoided. Seems more like a design flaw more than a software malfunction but I could be mistaken.

Well, all the injectors are - not sure about the air. That's why I asked. My SLK is totally electronic - but I have great trust in Teutonic programming - at least with respect to engine control.

Serious circle-track cars are required to have toe hoops on the pedal; a spring on the pedal; a spring on the linkage and a spring on the butterflies - and this is all for professionals who know exactly what to do in case of a stuck throttle. I would hope that major door-slammer manufacturers would have similar (very automatic) provisions for brain-dead steering wheel holders. Maybe not!

This post has been edited by Emax: 22 January 2010 - 05:38 PM

[mthornton]

Emax, on 22 January 2010 - 05:37 PM, said:

Well, all the injectors are - not sure about the air. That's why I asked. My SLK is totally electronic - but I have great trust in Teutonic programming - at least with respect to engine control.

Another FS watchdog today that isn't in the Pilz error book....grrrrr.... bloody teutonics.

Emax, on 22 January 2010 - 05:37 PM, said:

I would hope that major door-slammer manufacturers would have similar (very automatic) provisions for brain-dead steering wheel holders. Maybe not!

No need to get personal.

[Emax]

mthornton, on 22 January 2010 - 06:33 PM, said:

Another FS watchdog today that isn't in the Pilz error book....grrrrr.... bloody teutonics.


No need to get personal.

Mitch, I seriously doubt that you would depart this planet at the hands of a runaway Saki-sipper. You've got way too much common sense and presence of mind for that sort of demise. As with most original thinkers, you'll probably be ushered out by lesser beings via stoning, crucifiction,or financial ruin.

This post has been edited by Emax: 22 January 2010 - 07:23 PM

[Emax]

http://spectrum.ieee...r-pedal-problem

[k2skier]

I would just turn off the ignition if my throttle stuck wide open, hopefully not all the way as to lock the steering...

Toyota halts production on 8 models.
http://www.washingto...0012603492.html

I had a 1961 International truck with shot front engine mounts just out of high school, if you hit the brake hard (it had a pivot point attached to the engine block) it would push the engine forward and start accelerating hard, the harder you push on the brake, the more throttle was applied. After I tapped some guys bumper, there was gravel at the intersection at it started to skid, I replaced the engine mounts....

[Emax]

Until I actually SEE a mechanically defective part - my money is on a software problem.

Here are two links that explain "fly-by-wire"
It's worth noting here that these discussions also get into braking and steering by wire - and the associated risks. I'm not sure if the Toyota line uses electronically-assisted braking, but some of the cited accident reports allude to the brakes having no effect on the crisis situation. If that is the case, there is more involved than just a "sticky linkage"

http://auto.howstuff...ive-by-wire.htm

http://ec.europa.eu/.../en/innov2.html

This post has been edited by Emax: 27 January 2010 - 09:41 AM

[william b]

I'm not what you would call 'up to speed' with the newer systems, but I know of incidents where braking became ineffective in a 'stuck throttle' condition because the brakes were reliant upon engine vacuum for their boost, and in an open throttle situation, engine vacuum drops. Do these modern vehicles still use engine vacuum for their brake booster?

wbl

Emax, on 27 January 2010 - 09:04 AM, said:

Until I actually SEE a mechanically defective part - my money is on a software problem.

Here are two links that explain "fly-by-wire"
It's worth noting here that these discussions also get into braking and steering by wire - and the associated risks. I'm not sure if the Toyota line uses electronically-assisted braking, but some of the cited accident reports allude to the brakes having no effect on the crisis situation. If that is the case, there is more involved than just a "sticky linkage"

http://auto.howstuff...ive-by-wire.htm

http://ec.europa.eu/.../en/innov2.html

[Emax]

william b, on 27 January 2010 - 10:17 AM, said:

I'm not what you would call 'up to speed' with the newer systems, but I know of incidents where braking became ineffective in a 'stuck throttle' condition because the brakes were reliant upon engine vacuum for their boost, and in an open throttle situation, engine vacuum drops. Do these modern vehicles still use engine vacuum for their brake booster?

wbl

Many newer cars use electrically-assisted braking - but I'm not sure about the Toyotas in question. You're right about the (manifold) vacuum at full throttle - though most cars have a vacuum-reserve tank that is served by venturi vacuum as well (this one increases with increased air flow).

Seems like someone on this forum must own one.

[cordury joe]

I own an 08 Tundra .So far no throtte prolbems. With this latest news, my hand stays near the the gearshift lever.They are throttle by wire and the brake will not overide throttle input like on a VW. Waiting to hear from Toyota...

[Robert Stephens]

Emax, on 27 January 2010 - 10:36 AM, said:

Many newer cars use electrically-assisted braking - but I'm not sure about the Toyotas in question. You're right about the (manifold) vacuum at full throttle - though most cars have a vacuum-reserve tank that is served by venturi vacuum as well (this one increases with increased air flow).

I wasn't aware of this. As long as your booster is working, the brakes are many times stronger than the engine. You can simply turn off the key if the throttle sticks. Generally the wheel doesn't lock till you take the key out, or turn it to the full lock position, which requires an extra step.

Electronic throttle gives the computer MUCH more precise control of air/fuel mixture, so I'm glad to see it.

[Emax]

Robert Stephens, on 27 January 2010 - 07:02 PM, said:

I wasn't aware of this. As long as your booster is working, the brakes are many times stronger than the engine. You can simply turn off the key if the throttle sticks. Generally the wheel doesn't lock till you take the key out, or turn it to the full lock position, which requires an extra step.

Electronic throttle gives the computer MUCH more precise control of air/fuel mixture, so I'm glad to see it.

Agreed - all points. Saab has been "flying-by-wire" for decades and doing fine (hardware-wise, not financially). This new Toyota issue simply underscores the fact that when you design a regulated drive system (and drive-by-wire is), you also introduce the eventuality (not possibility) of it becoming unregulated due to processing or perhaps feedback failures. Designers of all such controls are obliged to create contingency solutions for such eventualities and not depend on the user to act in an appropriate, tech savvy manner when things go askew.

The above assumes that "it ain't the carpets" and that it probably isn't a "sticky" mechanical part. If the Toyota folks are honest (and gag their "glad-handers"), we may eventually know the real story.

[Peter]

Aren't nearly all new airliners fly-by-wire these days? Until recently, the United States based airlines went 2 years and flew 1.5 billion people without a single fatal accident.

[mikest2]

Expect more Toyota recalls: safety firm
Last Updated: Thursday, January 28, 2010 | 5:30 PM ET Comments3Recommend9CBC News
Toyota Motor Co. is suspending sales of eight models involved in last week's recall of 2.3 million vehicles to fix accelerator pedals with problems that could cause them to become stuck. (Associated Press)
A U.S.-based safety research firm says Toyota's problems of unintended acceleration have more than one cause and until the automaker starts looking in the right place, people can expect future recalls involving more models.

"Toyota would have us believe this was all floor mats, at least as of a couple of months ago. They've now changed their position, saying it's floor mats and accelerator pedals. But the reality is there's more to it. There are incidents that cannot be explained by either one of those mechanical interfaces," said Sean Kane, president of Safety Research and Strategies, Inc., based in Massachusetts.

Kane said his agency has documented 18 deaths due to unintended acceleration in certain Toyota models since 1999, as well as 2,274 incidents resulting in 275 crashes.

"I'm fairly confident that's an undercount because before much of the publicity, there wasn't the kind of investigation and evaluation of sudden unintended acceleration post-crash," Kane said in an interview with CBC Radio's As It Happens on Wednesday.

On Tuesday, Toyota announced it would suspend sales and production of eight Toyota models because of sticking accelerator pedals. Last week, Toyota issued a recall for the same models, affecting 2.3 million vehicles in Canada and the U.S.

Toyota dealerships dealing with concerned customers
Toyota dealerships are staying open longer and have hired additional staff to cope with the expected increase in the number of service calls. Customers are being advised not to try to inspect their accelerator pedals themselves.

"It's obvious to us, but it won't be obvious to the consumer," said Dan Golightly, senior operations manager at Downtown Toyota in Toronto.

Golightly said agents at his shop were fielding more calls from concerned car owners. He pointed out the problem existed only in cars made in North America. Vehicles built in Japan, like the Sienna, are not affected.

For the next three days, his shop will be open until midnight to accommodate people who can't get their car serviced during regular working hours.

He expected hours would be extended as well once the replacement part was shipped in.

In the meantime, customers who had committed to buying one of the recalled models are being given alternate models, temporarily.

Any customer who bought a car that was found to have the problem would be given a "loaner" until the problem was fixed, said Golightly.

"There's not many organizations that would take the step to halt production to make sure safety is foremost," he said.
On Thursday, Toyota announced an additional recall of 1.09 million vehicles in the United States covering five models: 2008-2010 Highlander, 2009-2010 Corolla, 2009-2010 Venza, 2009-2010 Matrix and 2009-2010 Pontiac Vibe.

It has also extended the recall to vehicles in Europe and China. Ford Motor Co. has also announced it has halted production of some full-sized commercial vehicles in China because they contain gas pedals built by the same company that made the accelerators in Toyota's recall.

For Kane, this recall is just the beginning of many more.

"We're not seeing one thing that's the root cause. I think floor mats are certainly a cause and it's entirely possible that pedals are a cause, but certainly many the of the incidents we've examined have all the telltales of electronic-related defects, and those can come in many forms," said Kane.

According to Kane, Toyota has known about problems in the electronic acceleration system for several years.

"In the past, Toyota has actually done technical bulletins to reflash the algorithms in their control units to prevent unintended acceleration incidents," he said.

Reflashing is a process that involves reconfiguring the computer control chip.

For instance, regarding the 2002 and 2003 Camry, one of the recalled models, Toyota issued a bulletin to dealers, advising them that if consumers reported complaints of unintended acceleration while travelling at between 38 and 42 miles per hour that they should "reflash" the computer with a prescribed algorithm to fix the problem.

Toyotas has not made any recalls over the electronic acceleration system. Both recalls involve accelerator pedals and floor mats.

"I think what we're going to see, unfortunately, is there's going to be additional recalls that will cover other models and it's going to unwind over time. The company is now saying it's examining other issues. They can't keep this up for much longer without really losing some significant trust in what they're doing," said Kane.

"The credibility of this company is really going out the window very, very quickly. Consumers have been told one thing — it's floor mats. Now they're shifting, now we're onto accelerator pedals and even that's shifting."


Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/co...l#ixzz0dxDp9SjX

[Emax]

At risk of being accused of beating a dead horse...

From a designer's point of view: Design News

http://www.designnew...foreseeable.php

Note: this article contains a misprint regarding brake over-ride in German cars.

[mthornton]

Today's cars being so high-tech, makes me hanker back to my youth.

Had a high-school buddy with a 67' Ford econoline Van... the type with the engine sitting between the driver and the co-pilot's seat. The van required 2 people to operate.... yes it had shag carpet.

The drivers job was to steer & operate the brake pedal, both of which still worked.
The co-pilot's job was more complex.
- to start the motor by using a gloved hand to choke the carb, while inserting a screw-driver across the starter leads.
- top operate the throttle mechanism by hand while driver negotiating through busy city traffic
a back-fire would occasionally shoot flames to the interior roof of the van, so you had to keep your head back.
- operate the automatic transmission by pulling on various strings that led beneath the floor-boards
- put out any small fires that might occur (these were routine... no need to stop)
- stop the motor by pulling the coil-wire off the distributor (had to be careful here!)

yes the exhaust leaked. But usually the van interior was so full of another type of smoke... we didn't really notice much.

This post has been edited by mthornton: 30 January 2010 - 01:38 PM