45 replies to this topic

[Bill]

skiersage, on Jan 21 2008, 09:52 AM, said:

No, I think that is a direct jump toward communism. Think about it. Communism is a form of government where the government assigns jobs to all citizens.......

Read up on communism. The government were they tell you what you are gonna do is Socialism, in communism, the government does not exist. Its actually true communism, something man will never see.

[Peter]

Related to this socialism thing, has anyone else noticed that in every Republican debate there has been mention of the Canadian socialism? Allan and other Canadians, do you think your "socialized" society is such just because you have universal healthcare?

[k2skier]

tram mechanic, on Jan 21 2008, 06:06 PM, said:

so you all enjoy the corporate-structured neo-facism of the present day US? You cry as if we are spiraling towards some socialist pit when in reality we couldn't be further from the fact. Huge differences in incomes between working people and the CEO's and lay-offs of skilled trades people while the leaders are walking away with golden parachutes worth billions and you blame socialism? Have some more kool-aid!

Finally someone with a brain!

Callo, if you think the Republicans are doing it right, why is it that King George has created the highest deficit in US history? I thought Republicans were supposed to be conservative? Lowering taxes now, (or as King George II wants to do , give us some $ back so we can buy more Chinese products) will only put off the inevitable, we lose services or taxes go up. Raising taxes a little to get us out of debt will work for now, (to undo the cluster f#$k George W Bush got us into) but Reaganomics hasn't worked in 28 years of trying. What is it about those who keep repeating mistakes....The shrinking middle class won't get a break, only those making the most will get a tax break and we HOPE the trickle down theory will come into effect.

I like the flat tax for all, about 14%. Being a sole proprietor, I pay about 35% now, if ALL corporations paid 14% in taxes we wouldn't be in the mess we are now.

This post has been edited by k2skier: 23 January 2008 - 11:05 AM

[Callao]

k2skier, on Jan 23 2008, 11:01 AM, said:

Finally someone with a brain!

Callo, if you think the Republicans are doing it right, why is it that King George has created the highest deficit in US history? I thought Republicans were supposed to be conservative? Lowering taxes now, (or as King George II wants to do , give us some $ back so we can buy more Chinese products) will only put off the inevitable, we lose services or taxes go up. Raising taxes a little to get us out of debt will work for now, (to undo the cluster f#$k George W Bush got us into) but Reaganomics hasn't worked in 28 years of trying. What is it about those who keep repeating mistakes....The shrinking middle class won't get a break, only those making the most will get a tax break and we HOPE the trickle down theory will come into effect.

I like the flat tax for all, about 14%. Being a sole proprietor, I pay about 35% now, if ALL corporations paid 14% in taxes we wouldn't be in the mess we are now.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are trying to say, nor am I certain whether you want taxes to go up or down. Come on, you sound like a guy who knows these issues. Give us some hard data and some unrefutable numbers. I can be persuaded by sound information--don't make sweeping generalizations like, we've actually been trying Reaganomics for all of the 28 years, or that Good old King George created the deficit by himself. I'm not stupid.

And to tram mechanic: the huge divide between rich and poor? That is capitalism. The idea of making people mostly the same (financially, that is), is a socialist idea. Politics and policy is not black and white, republicans and democrats, socialism and capitalism. It's all gray--don't kid yourselves into thinking that all the good ideas come from one side of the fence. Life is much more exciting than that.

[Peter]

George Bush did create a large chunk the deficit himself. Remember that he started his term with a budget surplus.

US Debt right now: $9,192,633,802,689.30
Cost of the war: $488,240,031,990 + half a million per minute after this post

[cjb]

I believe that there never was an actual budget surplus, just a forecasted surplus based on estimated revenues, which just means that the government took more of our money than they should have. (Of course no matter how much the deficit or surplus, they always take more than they should). Too much of our taxes go to a socialist/communist agenda. REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH.

[tram mechanic]

to tram mechanic: the huge divide between rich and poor? That is capitalism. The idea of making people mostly the same (financially, that is), is a socialist idea. Politics and policy is not black and white, republicans and democrats, socialism and capitalism. It's all gray--don't kid yourselves into thinking that all the good ideas come from one side of the fence. Life is much more exciting than that.
[/quote]

And you're ok with the huge divide? The larger the gap, the more divided the society. It's not about making people "the same", it's about taking care of the people. Call it "social consciousness". We all work for a living and pay into a society that should work for us, not against us.

[Callao]

Quote

And you're ok with the huge divide? The larger the gap, the more divided the society. It's not about making people "the same", it's about taking care of the people. Call it "social consciousness". We all work for a living and pay into a society that should work for us, not against us.

Ok with it? Not necessarily. But apparently you are not, more so than me. And if you aren't, you can actually do something about it. If you are richer than me, give me your money. But let me make myself clear--no matter what that divide is, I believe in helping myself and carving out a meaningful role in society--by myself. Even though I am a poor college student, or whatever. I have no intentions of being poor for long.

Stop trying to make the government take away the agency of man by forcing a stricter social distribution--stop forcing other Americans to give to the poor like you do.

[cjb]

[quote name We all work for a living and pay into a society that should work for us, not against us.
[/quote]


The problem is we don't all work for a living and we don't all work equally. The market should decide who earns what, not the government. Of course by taxing the top earners so much to GIVE that earned money to those (mostly) too lazy to work, or too unambitous to improve their place in life, the government truly does steal from its citizens. This isn't an issue of race or predetermined class, it is all about choices. Choose to work hard, finish school, have kids in AFTER you find your place, and AFTER you are married, and make smart decisions with you money, and you will probably be successfull Make the wrong choices and you will struggle, but it is not my place or anyone else's to support you. That is where charity, churches, and family come in.

[Peter]

That is ridiculous. People who are born into crappy families have hard lives are very likely not to become rich just by working hard. There is always the rags to riches story, but it is uncommon. I believe that a disproportionately large percentage of the black population is poor because they started in this country with nothing and they have never gotten past it. Are you meaning to tell me that none of them work hard? There are young people in this country who can't even finish high school because they have to start working to support their families. And there are a lot of things that taxes pay for that aren't welfare. Public schools, hospitals, etc. which I hope you will agree are valuable.

This post has been edited by Skier: 24 January 2008 - 05:35 PM

[Emax]

Here are some historical comments that my shed some light onto this thread.

The only difference between a tax man and a taxidermist is that the taxidermist leaves the skin.
-Mark Twain

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.
-Thomas Jefferson

'If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed.'
-Mark Twain

Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress....
But then I repeat myself.
-Mark Twain

I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
- George Bernard Shaw

A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, a debt he proposes to pay off with your money.
-G Gordon Liddy

Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
-James Bovard, Civil Libertarian (1994)


Foreign aid might be defined as a transfer of money from poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries.
-Douglas Casey, Classmate of Bill Clinton at Georgetown University

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
-P.J. O'Rourke, Civil Libertarian

Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
-Frederic Bastiat, French Economist (1801-1850)

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it
-Ronald Reagan (1986)

I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts.
-Will Rogers

If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free!
-P.J. O'Rourke

In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as possible from one party of the citizens to give to the other.
-Voltaire (1764)

Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you!
-Pericles (430 B.C.)

No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session.
-Mark Twain (1866)

Talk is cheap...except when Congress does it.
-Unknown

The government is like a baby's alimentary canal, with a happy appetite at one end and no responsibility at the other.
-Ronald Reagan

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
-Winston Churchill

The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

There is no distinctly Native American criminal class...save Congress.
-Mark Twain

What this country needs are more unemployed politicians.
-Edward Langley, Artist (1928 - 1995)

As for welfare: Cancel it. If you contribute nothing, that is exactly what you should expect to get.
But let's be reasonable about how we do it. After four generations on the dole, all benefits should cease.
- I said that

This post has been edited by Emax: 24 January 2008 - 06:39 PM

[Callao]

And thus we hear from the world's greatest--men who actually know what they are talking about.

[tram mechanic]

Callao, on Jan 24 2008, 08:45 PM, said:

And thus we hear from the world's greatest--men who actually know what they are talking about.

Or at least can quote the quotables!

[tram mechanic]

kind of on the same note
beware of politicians bearing gifts...

http://www.creators.com/opinion/david-siro...us-swindle.html

[Emax]

A friend sent this to me. There is sad truth in it.

///////////////////////////

Your Tax Rebate:
The federal government is sending each and everyone of us a $600 rebate. If we spend that money at Wal-Mart, the money will go to China . If we spend it on gasoline it will go to the Arabs. If we purchase a computer it will go to India . If we purchase fruit and vegetables it will go to Mexico , Honduras , and Guatemala . If we purchase a good car it will go to Japan . If we purchase useless crap it will go to Taiwan ...and none of it will help the American economy. The only way to keep that money here at home is to buy prostitutes, weed, beer, and tattoos, since these are the only products still produced in the USA . Thank you for your help & please support the US .

[lastchair_44]

All of our "rebate" is going straight back to the government.

[hyak.net]

BTW, it is not a rebate since half of the people getting the check never paid federal taxes in the first place.... It is closer to a welfare check.

This year me and the wife ended up paying in $22,000 to the IRS. Bill, I'd love to have your $1,000 debt!!!

BTW, the President (in this case Bush) does not spend the money, it is Congress. The President has veto power to help stop or slow down spending, but he does not create the spending. For fiscal sanity you need a good Congress (such as 1994), but there are very few politicians who can resist pork barrel spending.

[Peter]

Quote

the President (in this case Bush) does not spend the money

Except when he ordered the military into Iraq, Congress didn't have much choice in terms of paying that $3 trillion

[SkiBachelor]

However, it approved it, although that's when congress was being run by the Republican party.

[hyak.net]

Skier, on Apr 20 2008, 03:09 PM, said:

Except when he ordered the military into Iraq, Congress didn't have much choice in terms of paying that $3 trillion

Not true. The war cannot go on without congress approval and they all approved it and the spending, even the second time a couple years ago. Dems won't pull out of Iraq either. It would be political suicide on their part to pull out and leave the country to the terrorists. We are still in Korea 50 years later, why not ask for our pullout there? Same with Germany 60 years later....