Guys,
I work for the company, SnoRhino, and was surprised to hear your negative comments! Our last production unit, although extremely popular with snowboarders, was many times unpopular with the lift maintence/lift ops dept.
After realizing how to fix this, our new generation is smaller, lighter, and universally compatible with all chairlifts with footrests. http://www.snorhino.com/2004/
It was featured by the X-games, and has now won the praises of both lift maintenance and snowboarders alike.
However, your comments have taught me that the website is NOT doing a good job of selling the product. One user got the impression that it forced a quad to become a triple. This is not the case at all. There just happened to be only 3 people entereing that particular chair, which is very common.
Another user got the impression from the site that only one person can use it at a time. Also not the case.
So obviously, we have done a rather poor job of showing how the product works on the website. Since everyone here is a critic :), I would LOVE some feeback as to what on the website gave you the impression that it wouldnt work, so that we can change this asap. Also, is everyone here a skier or a snowboarder?
-jeff gladnick
0
SnoRhino - footrest
Started by jeffgladnick, Feb 24 2004 11:29 AM
22 replies to this topic
#2
-
- Member
- 363 Posts:
Established User
Posted 24 February 2004 - 03:48 PM
Well, for one, all the pictures displaying your product in use show the boarders taking up excessive room on the lift. If you could perhaps add photos showing how it would work with four people to a lift, maybe some pictures with a couple of skiers thrown into the mix as well, it might be more convincing that this product does not limit the capacity of the chairs. I cannot see how four snowboarders could use the snowrhino at once without their equipment stacked up on top of one another.
Another problem is that it may give skiiers the impression that if they are in one of the inner seats, it might be uncomfortable to have the snowboarders equipment laid out on top of theirs. When the snowboarder removes his board from the snowrhino, it is most likely to come crashing down on the skis.
It is a good idea, and there definitely would be a growing market for it, but it seems extremely difficult to execute effectively.
By the way, I am a skier, to answer your question.
Another problem is that it may give skiiers the impression that if they are in one of the inner seats, it might be uncomfortable to have the snowboarders equipment laid out on top of theirs. When the snowboarder removes his board from the snowrhino, it is most likely to come crashing down on the skis.
It is a good idea, and there definitely would be a growing market for it, but it seems extremely difficult to execute effectively.
By the way, I am a skier, to answer your question.
This post has been edited by CAski: 24 February 2004 - 03:49 PM
"Quo usque tandem abutere, Catalina, patientia nostra?" -Cicero
#4
-
- Member
- 229 Posts:
Established User
- Interests:Ski lifts, natrually.
Posted 24 February 2004 - 04:31 PM
I do think that you have a good idea for your product. There is undoubtedly a market out there for such a device- Big Bear Mountain, California is basically a giant terrain park, and I assume, is mostly frequented by snowboarders, although I have never been there. Such a mountain would find your device quite useful. It is however, the mountains that tend to have a more balanced mix of skiers and snowboarders where your inventive device would come into conflict.
I agree with CASki's arguement that skiers who happen to be sitting in the middle of the chair could face the possibilty of having their skis knocked off. However, on lifts that serve primarily the terrain park- such as the Catskinner chair at Blackcomb- problems should be rare. Yet, even I- a skier- find most footrests cumbersome and tend not to use them.
I agree with CASki's arguement that skiers who happen to be sitting in the middle of the chair could face the possibilty of having their skis knocked off. However, on lifts that serve primarily the terrain park- such as the Catskinner chair at Blackcomb- problems should be rare. Yet, even I- a skier- find most footrests cumbersome and tend not to use them.
This post has been edited by vancouverguy: 24 February 2004 - 04:33 PM
#7
-
- Industry II
- 2,087 Posts:
Multipurpose Machine
- Interests:Howdy folks, Im Zack and I live in California.
Posted 24 February 2004 - 07:56 PM
Well i guess i as a snowboarder would just like to try it out. THe only reason i dont know about it is becasue footrests as they are arent really a big deal for me if they are down. I rarely put the bar down mainly becasue it is annoying crossing boards over and all that. You should contact more resorts (especially in tahoe :) ). Id like to try one out, and untill i do, i dont see much of a need for them.
Zack
#8
-
- Member
- 363 Posts:
Established User
Posted 24 February 2004 - 08:19 PM
I also happen to dislike footrests. They seem to get in my way more often than not.
A marketing problem for you might be that many ski lifts lack any sort of footrest at all. You may try diversifying your market by expanding into an all-in-one footrest with your snowrhino. Many resorts (the three largest resorts in the Tahoe area -Squaw, Heavenly, and Northstar- have only one lift with a footrest between them that I know of, Lookout Express at Northstar) do not have footrestst installed. It could be a large potential market.
A marketing problem for you might be that many ski lifts lack any sort of footrest at all. You may try diversifying your market by expanding into an all-in-one footrest with your snowrhino. Many resorts (the three largest resorts in the Tahoe area -Squaw, Heavenly, and Northstar- have only one lift with a footrest between them that I know of, Lookout Express at Northstar) do not have footrestst installed. It could be a large potential market.
"Quo usque tandem abutere, Catalina, patientia nostra?" -Cicero
#9
-
- Industry II
- 2,087 Posts:
Multipurpose Machine
- Interests:Howdy folks, Im Zack and I live in California.
Posted 24 February 2004 - 08:37 PM
there are a few more then that; silverado at squaw and headwall as well at squaw. 3 total. Saftey bars are the norm if anything at tahoe resorts
Zack
#10
-
- Industry II
- 44 Posts:
Established User
Posted 25 February 2004 - 06:06 AM
Guys, Thanks for all of your feeback. I will post a few pictures on the website sometime later this week showing skiers/snowboarders mixed together, and some with 4 all on at the same time.
As for Bear Mtn/Mammoth, we have heard things like this before, but I was under the impression from talkng with people at the NSAA trade shows that neither of those resorts have footrests whatsoever.
Same thing goes for Tahoe, where I have actually been a few times (Heavenly/kirkwood) and the vast majority of lifts at those resorts did not have footrests, and in some cases, safety bars. Fortunately, the majority of lifts in the US seem to have these. So, in the future, when the budget permits, we will develop an all in one footrest or something similar.
As for difficulty using with several people, this is semi-true. For people who are inexperienced with the product, they need a little intruction. However, once people learn how to use it, it is quite easy to get 2 skiers/2 boarders on there.
With 4 boarders, the arrangement of the riders must be choreographed ahead of time. This is not too unreasonable, considering all of my friends who are snowboarders have a particular "side" of the chair the like to go on. My friend Pete prefers the right at all times, while my friend Gia who is goofy-footed prefers the left. As long as everyone sits in the right place it can go off without a hitch.
Also worth mentioning is that 4 boarders is the least likely scenario statistics-wise. The most common is a skier/boarder mix, which is where the product does the best, since skiers on the lift usually means the snowboarder is forced to hang/do yoga in order to get his/her board on there.
Thanks again for the suggestions, and when I update the website I will let you guys know so you can tell me if I did it correctly :)
-jeff
As for Bear Mtn/Mammoth, we have heard things like this before, but I was under the impression from talkng with people at the NSAA trade shows that neither of those resorts have footrests whatsoever.
Same thing goes for Tahoe, where I have actually been a few times (Heavenly/kirkwood) and the vast majority of lifts at those resorts did not have footrests, and in some cases, safety bars. Fortunately, the majority of lifts in the US seem to have these. So, in the future, when the budget permits, we will develop an all in one footrest or something similar.
As for difficulty using with several people, this is semi-true. For people who are inexperienced with the product, they need a little intruction. However, once people learn how to use it, it is quite easy to get 2 skiers/2 boarders on there.
With 4 boarders, the arrangement of the riders must be choreographed ahead of time. This is not too unreasonable, considering all of my friends who are snowboarders have a particular "side" of the chair the like to go on. My friend Pete prefers the right at all times, while my friend Gia who is goofy-footed prefers the left. As long as everyone sits in the right place it can go off without a hitch.
Also worth mentioning is that 4 boarders is the least likely scenario statistics-wise. The most common is a skier/boarder mix, which is where the product does the best, since skiers on the lift usually means the snowboarder is forced to hang/do yoga in order to get his/her board on there.
Thanks again for the suggestions, and when I update the website I will let you guys know so you can tell me if I did it correctly :)
-jeff
#12
-
- Industry II
- 2,087 Posts:
Multipurpose Machine
- Interests:Howdy folks, Im Zack and I live in California.
Posted 25 February 2004 - 08:50 AM
Yes in tahoe saftey bars are rare. I think it is a law in most states to have them, but not in california. Some resort workers have said the bars really serve no more function than just a false sence of security. One resort you may wish to try is mammoth becasue some of their lifts have footrests.
Zack
#13
-
- Administrator II
- 2,913 Posts:
Established User
Posted 25 February 2004 - 11:10 AM
I actually had a hard time finding you product in the picture on your web page. The image has a bit too much contrast. Your product is lost in either the graphics of the board or the shadow of the sun. You could use boards with a white base and no graphics for better product display. The sky and chair bail above the riders should be cropped and the picture enlarged to show more of your product. Perhaps an arrow-circle arrangement to highlight/point to the product.
As a lift maintenance issue; installs in minutes, seconds? What tools are needed for installation? What size of pipe does my footrest have to be? What preventive maintenance schedule should these new items require? How much time would this take? Can I offset the above costs with increased ticket sales? Will it be damaged if I hit it while deicing?
As a lift operational issue (separate department); if slightly turned would it contact a riders head as the footrest pivots down? Would it contact a riders leg if turned while their boot is on the footrest? Could you show a design aspect that prevents it from being turned on the web site?
Chairlift riders and weather elements have proven that steel is the material for footrest design, what material is your product made from and why is it as good as or better than steel? Could you include those answers in your web page?
Footrest use info: Footrest/safetybar(s) have proven to cause a huge amount of minor injuries, this is split equally between poor design and misuse. This is offset by the obvious prevention of falling from the chair. Most agencies use this circular argument for their viewpoint of the design code they enforce.
Ryan B
As a lift maintenance issue; installs in minutes, seconds? What tools are needed for installation? What size of pipe does my footrest have to be? What preventive maintenance schedule should these new items require? How much time would this take? Can I offset the above costs with increased ticket sales? Will it be damaged if I hit it while deicing?
As a lift operational issue (separate department); if slightly turned would it contact a riders head as the footrest pivots down? Would it contact a riders leg if turned while their boot is on the footrest? Could you show a design aspect that prevents it from being turned on the web site?
Chairlift riders and weather elements have proven that steel is the material for footrest design, what material is your product made from and why is it as good as or better than steel? Could you include those answers in your web page?
Footrest use info: Footrest/safetybar(s) have proven to cause a huge amount of minor injuries, this is split equally between poor design and misuse. This is offset by the obvious prevention of falling from the chair. Most agencies use this circular argument for their viewpoint of the design code they enforce.
Ryan B
www.ropetech.org
#14
-
- Industry II
- 44 Posts:
Established User
Posted 25 February 2004 - 05:16 PM
Ryan:
Thank you for the suggestions, they are well noted and will be incorporated into the new edition of the site (snorhino.com/2004). I will be sure to show more closeups and especially ones with visual aides highlighting the product to make it more visible.
As for your questions:
>>As a lift maintenance issue; installs in minutes, seconds? What tools are needed for installation?
Hand tools are only necessary, but we recommend a cordless drill. Thats it. Takes about a minute or two once you get the hang of it.
>>What size of pipe does my footrest have to be?
Completely adaptable to fit any shape or size of pipe.
>>What preventive maintenance schedule should these new items require?
If you choose our leasing program, we provide the maintence and this is not an issue. If you choose to purchase and own, we recommend checking to make sure the SnoRhino's are tight as often as you see fit. This is still a relatively new product, and the 2nd gen. ones have only been on lifts (aspen-buttermilk) since the end of january. Once we have solid data from aspen and beaver creek, who also recieved snorhinos, we will have clear maintenance instructions available at time of purchase ready for next season.
>>How much time would this take?
Shouldn't take much time at all. No NDE testing is required, unlike many other lift parts, so visual inspection/manually checking is fine.
>>Can I offset the above costs with increased ticket sales?
That is an option, during surveys we previously took, 86% of riders interviewed were willing to pay an additional $1 surcharge on top of their lift ticket if the resort installed the snorhino. Many resort owners balked when we suggested they charge snowboarders a higher rate in exchange for paying for our product, so we rarely mention this anymore.
>>Will it be damaged if I hit it while deicing?
Definitely not.
>>As a lift operational issue (separate department); if slightly turned would it contact a riders head as the footrest pivots down? Would it contact a riders leg if turned while their boot is on the footrest? Could you show a design aspect that prevents it from being turned on the web site?
Unlikely, since it is all the way at the end of the footrest, is sufficiently far enough away from the riders head that its position would not matter if it became loose and spun. Althought this has never happened in the past, it has also never occured to me, and perhaps with a VERY tall rider on a VERY short chair (top horizontal support beam close to chair) it may be an issue, but it has never come up before.
>>Chairlift riders and weather elements have proven that steel is the material for footrest design, what material is your product made from and why is it as good as or better than steel? Could you include those answers in your web page?
In our previous model we used nylon and had excellent results. We have recently switched to UHMW, which has comparative material properties. We have also undergone extensive stress testing with dead weight and shock force from many directions. Our products are tested down to 30 below freezing (F), and up to room temperature. Although steel is still better the UHMW, the cost and weight make it an issue. We offer a 3 year warranty which covers replacement of clamps and actual unit. We are still working on the website for the new prototype, and I will be sure to include a FAQ section addressing these questions and others.
Thanks again for your input and questions, and I hope i answered everything.
-jeff
Thank you for the suggestions, they are well noted and will be incorporated into the new edition of the site (snorhino.com/2004). I will be sure to show more closeups and especially ones with visual aides highlighting the product to make it more visible.
As for your questions:
>>As a lift maintenance issue; installs in minutes, seconds? What tools are needed for installation?
Hand tools are only necessary, but we recommend a cordless drill. Thats it. Takes about a minute or two once you get the hang of it.
>>What size of pipe does my footrest have to be?
Completely adaptable to fit any shape or size of pipe.
>>What preventive maintenance schedule should these new items require?
If you choose our leasing program, we provide the maintence and this is not an issue. If you choose to purchase and own, we recommend checking to make sure the SnoRhino's are tight as often as you see fit. This is still a relatively new product, and the 2nd gen. ones have only been on lifts (aspen-buttermilk) since the end of january. Once we have solid data from aspen and beaver creek, who also recieved snorhinos, we will have clear maintenance instructions available at time of purchase ready for next season.
>>How much time would this take?
Shouldn't take much time at all. No NDE testing is required, unlike many other lift parts, so visual inspection/manually checking is fine.
>>Can I offset the above costs with increased ticket sales?
That is an option, during surveys we previously took, 86% of riders interviewed were willing to pay an additional $1 surcharge on top of their lift ticket if the resort installed the snorhino. Many resort owners balked when we suggested they charge snowboarders a higher rate in exchange for paying for our product, so we rarely mention this anymore.
>>Will it be damaged if I hit it while deicing?
Definitely not.
>>As a lift operational issue (separate department); if slightly turned would it contact a riders head as the footrest pivots down? Would it contact a riders leg if turned while their boot is on the footrest? Could you show a design aspect that prevents it from being turned on the web site?
Unlikely, since it is all the way at the end of the footrest, is sufficiently far enough away from the riders head that its position would not matter if it became loose and spun. Althought this has never happened in the past, it has also never occured to me, and perhaps with a VERY tall rider on a VERY short chair (top horizontal support beam close to chair) it may be an issue, but it has never come up before.
>>Chairlift riders and weather elements have proven that steel is the material for footrest design, what material is your product made from and why is it as good as or better than steel? Could you include those answers in your web page?
In our previous model we used nylon and had excellent results. We have recently switched to UHMW, which has comparative material properties. We have also undergone extensive stress testing with dead weight and shock force from many directions. Our products are tested down to 30 below freezing (F), and up to room temperature. Although steel is still better the UHMW, the cost and weight make it an issue. We offer a 3 year warranty which covers replacement of clamps and actual unit. We are still working on the website for the new prototype, and I will be sure to include a FAQ section addressing these questions and others.
Thanks again for your input and questions, and I hope i answered everything.
-jeff
#15
-
- Administrator II
- 5,906 Posts:
lift mechanic
- Interests:Many.
Posted 07 March 2004 - 06:12 PM
A note- Jeff or one of his coworkers came to Copper today to install the SnoRhino on several chairs of the Eagle (1989 Poma Competition quad). Unfortunately, they misjudged the size of our footrests and will be coming back later with the correct parts. I'll let you all know how they work and whether they meet with success with our boarders.
Member, Department of Ancient Technology, Colorado chapter.
#17
-
- Industry II
- 44 Posts:
Established User
Posted 08 March 2004 - 02:24 PM
Yeah, that was Chris Kuber, our Rocky Mountain Sales guy. He called me the other day to tell me he didn't purchase the right size clamps. I hope he didn't embarrass us 
. Let me know if I made the right decision hiring him and tell me how well of a job he does! I would appreciate it.
. Let me know if I made the right decision hiring him and tell me how well of a job he does! I would appreciate it.
#19
-
- Member
- 44 Posts:
Established User
Posted 12 March 2004 - 12:14 PM
jeffgladnick, on Mar 8 2004, 02:24 PM, said:
Yeah, that was Chris Kuber, our Rocky Mountain Sales guy. He called me the other day to tell me he didn't purchase the right size clamps. I hope he didn't embarrass us . Let me know if I made the right decision hiring him and tell me how well of a job he does! I would appreciate it.
. Let me know if I made the right decision hiring him and tell me how well of a job he does! I would appreciate it.Jeff,
Better that Chris recognized the need for the right parts and waited to get them than to do a lash-up so I'd say he made the right call.
Any time you mix new product and new technicians, there's going to be some teething issues so this sounds pretty normal and expected to me.
You know that you're getting better advise & assistance here than you would ever get from a paid consultant don't you? In the past, manufacturers ended up isolated from thier end users and this forum is a great way to get direct feedback on different aspects of your business. Just the web site design critique alone was worth quite a bit.
Webmaster Bill here would never ask so I'll ask in his stead...
Have you considered making a donation to help Bill run the site for the next year?
http://www.skilifts.org/donations.htm
#20
-
- Industry II
- 44 Posts:
Established User
Posted 15 March 2004 - 03:24 PM
Quote
Jeff,
Better that Chris recognized the need for the right parts and waited to get them than to do a lash-up so I'd say he made the right call.
Any time you mix new product and new technicians, there's going to be some teething issues so this sounds pretty normal and expected to me.
Better that Chris recognized the need for the right parts and waited to get them than to do a lash-up so I'd say he made the right call.
Any time you mix new product and new technicians, there's going to be some teething issues so this sounds pretty normal and expected to me.
Yes indeed, let me know how you like them!
Quote
You know that you're getting better advise & assistance here than you would ever get from a paid consultant don't you? In the past, manufacturers ended up isolated from thier end users and this forum is a great way to get direct feedback on different aspects of your business. Just the web site design critique alone was worth quite a bit.
Webmaster Bill here would never ask so I'll ask in his stead...
Have you considered making a donation to help Bill run the site for the next year?
http://www.skilifts.org/donations.htm
Webmaster Bill here would never ask so I'll ask in his stead...
Have you considered making a donation to help Bill run the site for the next year?
http://www.skilifts.org/donations.htm
Damn you! You made me feel guilty so I made a donation. The feedback I got from my previous post on the website alone was worth it. I do appreciate all the inside info I have gotten from you guys, and i only wish I had discovered this site sooner. I have learned a lot in a short amount of time from this site that I probably wouldn't have known about, and a lot of it has helped.
Also, I do web programming for a living, albeit not in PHP (this site's language) and could probably offer some help on that kind of stuff in the future.
1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
