79 replies to this topic

[Walt Askier]

Here's an interesting anecdote about regional differences in restraint bar usage:

Two weeks ago I spent the week skiing in Massachusetts and Vermont. As an expirement, I decided to not initiate putting the bar down myself but instead to wait and see what my chairmates did. (when I rode the lift alone, I put the bar down, as that's the law). About 80% of the time, the bar came down immediately without warning or anybody asking - by the time my skis were off the ground the bar was coming down. The other ~20% of the time somebody either asked or said that it was coming down. One ride the chairmates did not initiate putting the bar down, and we rode up without it.

So, I'd say something like 99% compliance in Mass & Vt. One bar-less ride over the course of a week.

Back here in Michigan, there are few chairs with bars, but I was at Boyne Highlands on Saturday where the HSQ has the full deal - restraint bar with footrest. So I repeated the expirement.

The first couple rides of the day were with Ski Patrol and Ski School instructors doing their warmups. Nobody made any attempts to put the bar down. As the day wore on I noticed that none of my chairmates were putting the bar down, so I started looking around at other chairs. None of them had the bar down either. So I started looking at the rope periodically to see if any chairs were going up the hill with the bar down.

I did this all day, from 9am to 4pm on a busy Saturday - there was only the occasional empty chair and only a few empty seats. I didn't see a single chair go up the hill all day with the bar deployed. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. That surprised me - I would have guessed that usage was something like 50%, but it's approaching zero.

BTW, I did put it down myself a couple times just to verify that it worked.

So, in this part of the world, only a very few chairs have bars, and on the ones that do nobody bothers to use them.

[Kicking Horse]

Alright Here is the tally for this weekend.

Sat 3 slows 2 stops,
Sun 2 slows 4 stops,
Mon 4 slows 1 stop. We were not busy at all on Monday.

[Andoman]

Walt Askier, on Feb 10 2009, 05:35 PM, said:

Here's an interesting anecdote about regional differences in restraint bar usage:

Two weeks ago I spent the week skiing in Massachusetts and Vermont. As an expirement, I decided to not initiate putting the bar down myself but instead to wait and see what my chairmates did. (when I rode the lift alone, I put the bar down, as that's the law). About 80% of the time, the bar came down immediately without warning or anybody asking - by the time my skis were off the ground the bar was coming down. The other ~20% of the time somebody either asked or said that it was coming down. One ride the chairmates did not initiate putting the bar down, and we rode up without it.

So, I'd say something like 99% compliance in Mass & Vt. One bar-less ride over the course of a week.

Back here in Michigan, there are few chairs with bars, but I was at Boyne Highlands on Saturday where the HSQ has the full deal - restraint bar with footrest. So I repeated the expirement.

The first couple rides of the day were with Ski Patrol and Ski School instructors doing their warmups. Nobody made any attempts to put the bar down. As the day wore on I noticed that none of my chairmates were putting the bar down, so I started looking around at other chairs. None of them had the bar down either. So I started looking at the rope periodically to see if any chairs were going up the hill with the bar down.

I did this all day, from 9am to 4pm on a busy Saturday - there was only the occasional empty chair and only a few empty seats. I didn't see a single chair go up the hill all day with the bar deployed. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. That surprised me - I would have guessed that usage was something like 50%, but it's approaching zero.

BTW, I did put it down myself a couple times just to verify that it worked.

So, in this part of the world, only a very few chairs have bars, and on the ones that do nobody bothers to use them.

I was there a few weeks ago and witnessed the same thing, but now that I though about it the only time I've used the bar in michigan was at Boyne Mountain on a very very windy day when the chair broke down and we waited for 2 to 3 hours to get the rope rig over to let us down.

[zeedotcom]

Personally, I'm not a fan of restraint bars with foot rests. It seems like a good way to scratch up perfectly good bases. One item I found interesting last spring while skiing out west is that I believe both Breckenridge and Beaver Creek had signs that said "lower foot rest" rather than "lower restraint bar."

If I am riding a lift that has a standard straight restraint bar, or one that just has handles, I will generally use it, as I have seen many lifts with improperly adjusted brakes that will stop quickly and especially with plastic seats (read slippery) that seems inclined to pitch you forward. (I know this conversation regarding deceleration, sway, etc has been had on this forum before). If I am riding a chair with foot rests, I will usually leave it up and hook an arm around the back of the seat.

At our area, we have foot rests on one chair because it is used for foot passengers. The theory was that because that lift has them, all the lifts must have them because otherwise if something were to happen on another lift it would be "well if one lift had foot rests, why didn't they all? That must have contributed to the incident."

Law, code, insurance, and practical requirements all differ.

[Walt Askier]

Interesting article in the Vancouver Sun a couple of days ago - they FOIAed all the reported lift accidents at BC ski resorts and reported the findings:

106 "reportable incidents". 13 of these were falls from lifts.

It's unclear how many of these falls would have been prevented by the restraint bar; none of the incidents detailed in the article would have been prevented by the bar (although the incident at Mt Seymore is unclear) , but they don't detail all 13.

The article does mention 3 injuries caused by the restraint bar:

Quote

Two skiers were injured March 19 at Mount Seymour when struck by a carrier that had the restraining device down on the loading platform. The report said the operator failed to foresee the problem and stopped the lift "too late to avoid affecting loading passengers."

The same thing happened to a female passenger on Jan. 6 at Hemlock Valley, a level-two incident. She managed to raise the bar and load the carrier but her "right leg got dragged under the chair." The operator did not stop the lift and the passenger remained on the carrier until she reached the top station, where she was unable to bear weight on her right leg. The lift was stopped and medical attention sought.

So, my count is 3 injuries caused by the restraint bar, zero prevented by it (although this number isn't solid). Now, one year (2008) in one province is not enough data to make any broad pronouncements. But I don't think it's "obvious" that a restraint bar reduces injuries.

[zeedotcom]

Keep in mind that if an incident would have occurred, and the restraint bar prevented it, it is no longer an incident and therefore would not be reported.

[Walt Askier]

zeedotcom, on Feb 25 2009, 12:16 PM, said:

Keep in mind that if an incident would have occurred, and the restraint bar prevented it, it is no longer an incident and therefore would not be reported.

Good point. Obvious in retrospect, but you are correct.

The way to impute the safety value of the bar would be to comare incidents among lifts with restraint bars and similar lifts that don't. Until then, we don't know how many incidents they prevent, other than a WAG.

[DonaldMReif]

I always use the safety bar on chairlifts, because it's just another habit when I ski. Of course, the footrest equipped lifts (high speed quads and six packs) are usually the better ones to go on since you can rest your skis while riding up. Only a few fixed grips in Colorado have footrests, such as Burgess Creek at Steamboat, Wayback at Keystone, Zuma at Arapahoe Basin, and a few more like Little Eagle at Vail.

[seilbahnbilder.ch]

Is there any reason why chairlifts in North America often don't have foot rests? In whole Europe I know only two detachable triples in Arosa (Switzerland) wo don't use foot rests!

And why do almost all lifts in Whistler have foot rests but not at Grouse Mountain/Cypress/Mt. Seymour?

This post has been edited by seilbahnbilder.ch: 08 March 2009 - 07:10 PM

[DonaldMReif]

seilbahnbilder.ch, on 08 March 2009 - 07:09 PM, said:

Is there any reason why chairlifts in North America often don't have foot rests? In whole Europe I know only two detachable triples in Arosa (Switzerland) wo don't use foot rests!

And why do almost all lifts in Whistler have foot rests but not at Grouse Mountain/Cypress/Mt. Seymour?

It probably has to do with what the people of the resort in question feel like.

Here in Colorado, the only five high speed quads that do NOT have footrests are:

Winter Park:
Zephyr Express
Gemini Express
Eskimo Express
Prospector Express

Snowmass:
Coney Glade

and the only high speed six pack without them is Christie Peak Express at Steamboat, although that's for clearance at the midway station.

What I've never understood is why Coney Glade doesn't have footrests - all the other high speed quads and six packs at Snowmass feature them.
As for Winter Park, the four lifts mentioned above make up 57.14285 % of the area's high speed quad lift system. Somehow, the remaining three: Olympia Express, Pioneer Express, and High Lonesome Express, plus the six packs, have footrests. I don't know exactly why. Maybe it's because the four in the Snoasis/Sunspot part of the mountain are used by a lot of ski school groups (however, the Zephyr Express would be better worth it having footrests, because of its length )

Other than that, I think virtually all of Colorado's high speed quads and six packs have arm and footrests. I know for certain that this is the practice of Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, and Keystone, since I've literally seen all of their high speed quads and six packs and seen them with footrests and armrests. Look at those high speed lifts at Copper, or Crested Butte, or, well, you get the idea.

[k3000]

Jonni, on 07 July 2007 - 02:07 PM, said:

In Vermont it's law to have to use your bar, so needless to say operators usually yell at people for not using them. I only use it sometimes, or if I feel like leaning on something.

yes it's the law, but lift operators or ski patrollers are not police officers and it's not their job to enforce the law but to promote general safety. If you want to use the bar great, but if you choose not too you should not be reprimanded for it. For most people, they paid over $70 to ski and really don't want to hear people telling them to put the bar down. At tower #1 of every lift i know of in Vermont there is a sign that states the law, and that should be it. Many people are annoyed by mountain employees standing a tower 2 yelling at them to "put the bar down". When Vermont State police start to issue tickets for failure to put the bar down I am moving west.

[Kicking Horse]

DonaldMReif, on 07 July 2009 - 04:44 AM, said:

Here in Colorado, the only five high speed quads that do NOT have footrests are:

Winter Park:
Zephyr Express
Gemini Express
Eskimo Express
Prospector Express

Snowmass:
Coney Glade

I'm pretty sure there are other HSQ's in the state that are without foot rests!

[DonaldMReif]

Kicking Horse, on 25 August 2009 - 02:33 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure there are other HSQ's in the state that are without foot rests!

These are the only ones I know off the hook! The Doppelmayr and Garaventa CTEC quads I've been on in Colorado have all had footrests!

[pomafr]

"The physics of a passenger sitting properly in a chairlift do not require use of a restraining bar. If the chairlift stops suddenly (as from use of the system emergency brake), the carrier's arm connecting to the grip pivots smoothly forward—driven by the chair's inertia—and maintains friction (and seating angle) between the seat and passenger. The restraining bar is useful for children—who do not fit comfortably into adult sized chairs—as well as apprehensive passengers, and for those who are disinclined or unable to sit still."

[DonaldMReif]

pomafr, on 05 September 2009 - 09:00 AM, said:

"The physics of a passenger sitting properly in a chairlift do not require use of a restraining bar. If the chairlift stops suddenly (as from use of the system emergency brake), the carrier's arm connecting to the grip pivots smoothly forward—driven by the chair's inertia—and maintains friction (and seating angle) between the seat and passenger. The restraining bar is useful for children—who do not fit comfortably into adult sized chairs—as well as apprehensive passengers, and for those who are disinclined or unable to sit still."

It's the best reason to mandate safety bars on learning lifts, or lifts in high-children-traffic areas. Example - Arrow, Discovery, and Endeavour at Winter Park, (the former two lacking bars, Arrow only having bars in the summer for the slide).

[Kicking Horse]

DonaldMReif, on 05 September 2009 - 11:13 AM, said:

It's the best reason to mandate safety bars on learning lifts, or lifts in high-children-traffic areas. Example - Arrow, Discovery, and Endeavour at Winter Park, (the former two lacking bars, Arrow only having bars in the summer for the slide).

I disagree with this statement. If itmandated how will people learn?

[liftmech]

Learn what?

We're installing 'comfort bars' on L-lift as we speak (same ones as K-lift). Ski school wants them, for whatever reason.

This topic now has four pages, and I'm sure we could argue about it for many more. Insert sound of stick on dead horse here. (I'd close it for ennui but there hasn't been any egregious name-calling yet). So far I think it's an even split, opinion-wise. There really isn't any concrete evidence one way or the other as to whether bars help or hinder.

[boardski]

I generally prefer not to use the safety bar. During the 70s and 80s growing up skiing, almost none of the lifts had the bars except those chairs with footrests which was not very common. Many people on the higher capacity lifts insist on having them down, my wish is that people would use some manners such as asking if it is OK if we put the bar down (I have never said "no" and have not witnessed anyone else refusing) and remember to raise the bar in sufficient enough time to prepare for the unload. I confess I get a little irritated when people immediately slam the @E*&& bar down like they are afraid of riding the lift and don't raise it until the chair is going into the station at the top but I try to be tolerant and as polite as possible.

[Lift Kid]

liftmech, on 13 September 2009 - 06:34 AM, said:

Learn what?

We're installing 'comfort bars' on L-lift as we speak (same ones as K-lift). Ski school wants them, for whatever reason.

That's what the bars should be called; "comfort bars." They're really handy for ski school classes and younger kids. That's why we have them at Hyland!

[DonaldMReif]

boardski, on 13 September 2009 - 06:23 PM, said:

I generally prefer not to use the safety bar. During the 70s and 80s growing up skiing, almost none of the lifts had the bars except those chairs with footrests which was not very common. Many people on the higher capacity lifts insist on having them down, my wish is that people would use some manners such as asking if it is OK if we put the bar down (I have never said "no" and have not witnessed anyone else refusing) and remember to raise the bar in sufficient enough time to prepare for the unload. I confess I get a little irritated when people immediately slam the @E*&& bar down like they are afraid of riding the lift and don't raise it until the chair is going into the station at the top but I try to be tolerant and as polite as possible.

When I'm ever in Breckenridge, at least 98% of all chairs I see going up Quicksilver Super6 have the bar lowered. And I lower the bar upon loading, raising it just before entering the terminal.