75 replies to this topic

[KZ]

Cool, if it is a private resort, non-profit, it could work.

[liftmech]

Hole-in-the-wall, if your project can afford it, is a nice solid lift. It has the older Type T grip and the older sheave assemblies, which in almost every mechanic's opinion are better and more reliable than some of Yan's newer stuff.
As far as adding vertical to a lift, you would have to look at the profile to determine whether you'd need to add depression assemblies or not. But that's a question that will come after the DEIS, the MDP, and having an surveyor come out and plot the liftline. Assuming you will get approval for the area, you need a detailed survey of the proposed liftline to send to an engineer who can draw you up a profile. The profile, in turn, will tell you how many towers you need, how many sheaves on those towers, whether you will still need the height-adjustable function this lift has, etc.
Some things to think about when buying a used lift:
-Just because the lift was 1220x4500 doesn't mean that's a hard-and-fast size. Obviously vertical wil change, and you could have a 4000' lift by cutting 500' off the haul rope. If you can find a section of rope that is the same size and construction, you can splice that in to make the lift longer.
-Get hold of the maintenance records for that lift before you commit to buying it. If the work looks shoddy, but you still want the lift, make a thorough inspection of everything. The records will also tell you if there's anything you need to worry about once the lift is operational.
-You'll need an engineer to change the drive parameters and pour a new counterweight, unless your re-engineered lift has the same tension as when it was original (and even then- do you really want to pay to ship a chunk of concrete when you could pour one on site for cheaper?)

Keep us posted on the process- this could be very interesting!

[KZ]

Here are a few pictures of chair 17 at mammoth:






I think this lift is basically the same as 7 at kirkwood except it has hydrolic tensioning instead of a counterweight.

[KZ]

and a few more:

[iceberg210]

John,

How much can you extend a lift without having to replace motors tension controls ETC

Also it seems to me chair 17 at mamouth would be better given that it has hydralic tensioning but that is just me.

Also what tension system is cheaper to maintain and what are the benifits of either hydralic or conterwieght?

One other thing

What kind of amenities would you need to start it up?

This post has been edited by iceberg210: 11 February 2004 - 04:17 PM

[floridaskier]

SkiBachelor, on Feb 10 2004, 06:31 PM, said:

Both Deer Valley and Mammoth Mountain are removing lifts and replacing them with new ones.

Deer Valley is removing the Sultan triple. A ski resort here in my state of Oregon recently bought a triple from Deer Valley and installed it at their resort. They did fund raising which paid for the lift and had volunteers install the lift for them. I think they got the triple for $90,000 or maybe less.

It had to be the Clipper lift: of DV's removed triples:

Carpenter- moved and separated into Red CLoud and Crown Point lifts
Wasatch- moved Quincy lift
Homestake- moved to Little Chief
Quincy- now resides at The Canyons as the Day Break lift
Clipper- ??? (many of the towers are still in use on DV's 99 Stealth2 Silver Lake HSQ)

Therefore it has to be the Clipper lift. Wonder where they got the towers though.
$90,000 is one heck of a deal for a lift that was hardly ever operating in all the times I've been there and seen it

Unless this whole thing is occuring in the future, in which case they probably bought the Sultan lift.

[SkiBachelor]

Oh no, the lift has already been installed. They could have probably picked up some towers from Mammoth maybe?

[liftmech]

Extending a lift:
The length of a lift does not appreciably affect the amount of horsepower and tension you will need. Vertical rise has a much greater effect on those, simply because gravity works in a downward direction. In many cases, you can adjust the output of the existing hydraulic tension system by adjusting the relief valves, pressure switches, et cetera. Also, the drive of a lift is generally sized larger than the installation requires, so you may be able to get away with using the existing one. If not, you may be able to replace the motor only and reprogram the drive for the higher output; I'm not certain what that would take.
Hydraulic vs. Gravity tensioning
Hydraulic tension systems are more flexible and more compact, but gravity (counterweight) systems are much easier to maintain. With a hydraulic system. you need to maintain the hoses, valves, pump, tank, and rams, in addition to testing the system once a month for proper operation. That said, a hydraulic system takes up much less space and is smoother during normal operation where a counterweight will move the carriage forward/backward quite a bit on a stop.
Gravity systems, as stated above, are much simpler in concept and operation. Maintenance consists of lubricating the counterweight rope and any sheaves once a year, as well as inspecting the CWT rope as you would a haul rope. The drawbacks are finding a place to put the counterweight (generally directly behind the lift, but Yan was famous for hanging it off in the woods somewhere) and the initial pouring of the concrete. Adjusting the counterweight is easy in most systems; simply tie the live end of the rope to a piece of heavy equipment and either back up or move forward.
Amenities for starting up a lift:
You will need a transformer to convert line power (from the power company) to 480 volts AC. The power then goes into the main drive cabinet, where a series of smaller transformers provide you with 220 and 110 VAC for lights, heaters, power outlets, et cetera. (The drive itself is essentially a large rectifier, which converts the 480 VAC to 480 VDC for the electric motor.) You will need an access road to the drive terminal, whether it is a top- or bottom-drive. You will need sufficient fuel for the standby engine to unload the line; or in the case of a full-capacity diesel, enough to run the lift all day. And you will need lift shacks; if you're buying a used lift, I'd recommend building new ones over keeping the old ones and moving the controls et cetera into the new shacks.

[iceberg210]

How big would these lift shacks have to be?

Also what kind of amenities do you think you'd need for a small resort as we've described? (ie logde warming shack etc)

[liftmech]

You'd probably want a small warming area at the parking lot, with at least tickets, snacks, washrooms, radio room (dispatch for mountain issues) and first aid. I don't know if you want to rent skis right off the bat; I'd wait and see if the demand is there. When I was at Baker we had the ticket office double as dispatch, and the administration office was in there too. You also want at least a one-bay shop for your maintenance needs, which with one lift would be pretty small. I've seen and heard of small areas getting a surplus Quonset hut from the military and using that as the shop until they had the capital to build a real one; that might be a good option.
As far as lift shacks, they only need to be big enough to house a small control panel, a heater, and a chair for the operator to sit in (top) and big enough for the entire lift crew (three to four people) to stash their gear (bottom). You can build those any way you like.

[ccslider]

If you want to see what a small operation did in CO to recently open a new area, go check out the lift and operations facilities at Silverton Mtn. The owner there put in a used lift and minimal operations facilities. It works just fine for what it is.

[iceberg210]

Thanks for all the advice so far

BTW I just found out that the land that my friend's aunt was thinking of is right outside of Landor Wyoming

PS I'm working finding maps of the place

[iceberg210]

So here is the timline

Summer 2004 Draw up buisness plan
Winter 2004-2005 Secure Finacing
Summer 2005 Install lifts
Winter 2005-2006 First Season

[KZ]

It may take a lot more time unless the land is private. If it is on public land, expect it to take a great deal more time.

[iceberg210]

Yeah it may take longer to secure rights to the land lifts etc but i would like the buissness plan done this summer and this is just a pretty tenative scheldule as you get further and further away from the present.

[iceberg210]

New update...

I talked to my best friend's aunt this past weekend and whe is going to send me the maps. The appoximate demensions of the North facing bowl this resort would be put in are

a. 1200 verticle
b. 4500 horizontal
c. Has mostly blues and green but has one steep run that would be a black.

I'll get copies of the maps and ideas once i get them.

[KZ]

sounds pretty cool. Any idea on the acerage and the total number of runs?

[iceberg210]

Although I don't know the acreage I do know that it is half on private land and the other half on BLM land (Thank goodness that it isn't on forest service land). I should be able to get okays from the private land owner fairliy easily beacuase the only thing he uses the land for is grazing cattle and he can't do that in the winter because of the snow. Also there would be no need to make snow for if you absolutely had to have more (which is extremely unlikely) you might be able to snow harvest on the top rigde.

More updates coming in as i get them.

[ccslider]

Getting approvals for use of BLM land may not be the slam dunk you're hoping for. Again, check in with Aaron Brill who operates the Silverton Ski Area in Colorado. He had to go through rather extensive environmental analysis (maybe an EA or more likely an EIS) from the BLM to get a very limited daily SAOT permit.

What are the elevations of the summit and base of the proposed ski area?

What's the lat/long coordinates of the area? You can go to terraserver-usa or topozone websites and get basic topo maps why waiting for the more detailed ones to arrive.

[SkiBachelor]

I'm sure one of the members on this forum like Vancouverguy could make a really nice layout of the mountain and post a picture of what the ski area can look like. From that we can plan chairlifts and base areas and all that cool stuff. :)