38 replies to this topic

[RichN]

I am brand new to this forum. I became a member solely because of my interest in gathering information about an incident that happened at my small (very small!) local ski area here in Ohio. I have skied at this small ski area with my daughters, now ages 7 and 10, since they were 2 years old. I am very protective of them and have been slowly letting them be more independent on the slopes. I still want control over them while they are on chair lifts, so my wife or I ride with them. I was very upset recently when I counted 14 chairs that did not have safety bars. I know there are varying opinions on "safety" that these bars offer ( I did read post from last June). But, I feel safer riding with my child with a bar because I can keep a hand on or near them and still have something to hold onto myself no matter if it is just 2 of us or if we are riding with others on a quad. I cannot image riding in the middle of a quad with my 7 year old and having nothing to hang onto except the back of the chair. How can anyone think that is safe?

I realize that laws differ from state to state and country to country. It was interesting to read the information in "SAFETY BARS" post last June. What I am interested in specifically is understanding why the insurance company for our ski area has told them that they should remove all the bars! Does anyone have information about why an insurance company would say that? Keep in mind that I'm in Ohio which does not require safety bars by law. I can understand leaving decision up to skier, but for Pete's sake I refuse to be a middle rider on a quad with nothing in front of me!

Thanks in advance for any information/opinions.

[SkiBachelor]

It seems rather odd that an insurance company would require a ski area to remove its restraining bars unless there was some problem with them. For example, difficult to lower and therefore one might fall out of the chair while trying to bring it down. Maybe people were getting their fingers pinched and the insurance company felt that this could lead to a lawsuit. I know that a woman is currently trying to sue Vail after claiming a few years later that she lost part of her finger while bringing down the restraining bar on the High Noon lift.

Do know the manufacturer of the lift and have any pictures. I'm sure some people on here could come up to some ideas why they were requested to be removed.

[Kelly]

Rich
I gather and post an incident report in the industry section (that does not show on your view of this web site).
From the accident/incident reports that I see from Tramway boards and OSHA reports indicate that the number of minor accidents such as SkiBachelor mentions caused by restraining bars is significant compared to persons falling from chairs.
A large amount of smaller injuries can often outweigh one larger one.
Yes any accident is a tragic event but perhaps this was one of the reasons given to you.
Also you must understand that the insurance company does have a financial relationship to the area and certainly looks at those statistics with this in mind.

I certainly have seen a number of designed restraint systems – some good and some I wonder what tropical beach the designer was thinking of – it's possible they have a design that is not the best and the installation of newer/better designed restraints is too costly.

Also from my reports you should be aware that most of the accidents are smaller children who either slip under the restraining bar, never had the restraining bar down, slid off the chair due to reasons related to a misload, or horse-play/inattention was involved. No actual physical force created by the lift once it has left the loading area has been mentioned in these reports.

My opinion is divided on this issue – what if car seatbelts injured us just by putting them on? Would we still wear them? Does a restraint bar save that many people? I don’t know. Does a restraint bar injure that many riders? Yes apparently so.

I applaud your foresight by looking after your family's safety; my suggestion is the same that I give my family: don’t load without a parent or adult and pay attention to the consequences of a fall when riding a lift with or without a restraining bar.

[aug]

In my opinion either all of the safety bars should be installed or all of them should be off. For continuity sakes.

[Peter]

The Red Chair at Red River New Mexico has them on every other chair, I have no idea why.

Also you are right that it varies by state, in Washington at Crystal Mountain you have this lift with a 50 foot tower and cliffs below but no bar. I have never heard anyone complain about it because people are used to it here.

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[Lift Dinosaur]

aug, on Jan 22 2007, 03:53 PM, said:

In my opinion either all of the safety bars should be installed or all of them should be off. For continuity sakes.

And I believe that this may have been the input from the Insurance carrier- "You need to have restraint bars on all of your chairs or none". As RyanB stated, from a cost stand point it was/is easier to remove the one's you have.

[Callao]

It's true---it's really just something you get used to. Safety bars seem like a rare find to me, even on the newer lifts. The only time I got a little nervous and had to wrap my arm through the back-rest bars was when I thought I was going to fall asleep on Brian Head's Giant Steps lift.

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[Lift Kid]

Here in Minnesota, we really don't have safety bars. A few beginner lifts do but not many. Most of the safety bars on the lifts here don't work either. On a few lifts I have ridden, the bar will come down, but not up again.... At Wild Mtn.'s lift #1 there are bars missing on a lot of the chairs because they fall off! On lift #1, the chair I rode was missing the back two seat bars and the arm rest on the side that I sat on.

[RichN]

Lift Kid, on Jan 22 2007, 09:19 PM, said:

Here in Minnesota, we really don't have safety bars. A few beginner lifts do but not many. Most of the safety bars on the lifts here don't work either. On a few lifts I have ridden, the bar will come down, but not up again.... At Wild Mtn.'s lift #1 there are bars missing on a lot of the chairs because they fall off! On lift #1, the chair I rode was missing the back two seat bars and the arm rest on the side that I sat on.

To everyone who replied, thanks! You gave me a better perspective on this and things to think about. The "consistency" issue is probably the main thing. I didn't mention this before, but I also wonder about the fact that the lifts are probably 40+ years old may also have an impact. I'm sure that there are better safety bar designs on newer lifts. For now, I'll just be sure to keep one hand near the kids and the other on whatever is most secure!

Thanks!!

[Skiing#1]

Alta Resort in Utah have no safely/foot rest bars at all lifts. First time, I rode Collins Lift and I felt my equipment heavy but took 5 minutes later, I got to used it and it don't bother me at all.

I feel most lifts should have safely/foot rest bars, because my several friends have epilepsy or seizure, they love skiing and riding the lifts. Their doctors ordered them to not riding the chairlifts and they encourage them to ride the gondola or the tram. My friends ingored and they did riding the chairlifts. I sat next to them, and sometimes I feel nervous "if" they get seizure, I have to hold or pull them, but impossible because bodies get out of control. That is what I worry so I perfer to have safely bars for them.

This post has been edited by Skiing#1: 22 January 2007 - 07:15 PM

[aug]

Remember what Dirty Harry Calahan said"you got to know your limitations" So now it's our fault if you don't follow doctors orders. It is so typical of people in this country to expect that any industry has to accomadate everyones disability to the measure of infringing upon others right of access. But if you have any sort of condition that limits your ability to stay awake or stay in control of your facultys you should not be driving , skiing or riding open aerial lifts. It is every persons job to evaluate their own limitations. First it is the state telling you that you have to have safety bars, what is next, that every lift must be a gondola or tram to accomodate all the people that pass out uncontrolably. If you think skiing is expensive now what do you think it will cost if all lifts have to be enclosed to accomodate these people. I myself do not like safety bars except the ones that serve whisky

This post has been edited by aug: 22 January 2007 - 08:32 PM

[WBSKI]

All BC ski areas have restraining bars and I think Alberta ones do too. Here its against the law not to. I dont think I have ever been on a lift without a restraining bar.

[Allan]

WBSKI, on Jan 22 2007, 09:05 PM, said:

All BC ski areas have restraining bars and I think Alberta ones do too. Here its against the law not to. I dont think I have ever been on a lift without a restraining bar.

All of Canada. We all follow the z98:
5.12.2
Each chair shall be equipped with a restraining device that will not open under forward pressure.

although I think BC the z98 is law, not sure about the rest of the country.

[Whistler]

I have a hard enough time as a ski instructor keeping my kids in the chair WITH the safety bar down, so introducing a bunch of beginner skiers to a lift without a safety bar would be a nightmare for me. Having said that, unless i'm teaching, I personally don't care whether their is a safety bar or not.

[Disco]

Insurance Co. told me that all carriers on a lift must have safety bars or none of them can. Liability would be higher if someone fell off a chair that didn't have one if the two around it did. Legal BS, but I can understand it. It doesn't matter if there is a combination of safety bars and saftey bars with footrests. Now, it is my opinion that if someone can sit still in a regular chair they should have no problem falling out of a carrier. If someone likes to play monkey on your house furnature - the best place for them is not 30+ feet above the deck. I don't mean to be harsh, but I have never heard of someone falling out of a chair while they were just sitting there. First question is always, "What were THEY doing?". Best way to avoid an "accident" (own damn fault!) - encourage your kids to pay attention - don't stick your poles in the sheave assemblies / guidage - don't try to grab/kick/stab at towers or tower ladders - leave your equipment on or off while your riding (don't try to put on or take off a backpack - don't try to take off your ski or board and work on it while riding - remove or put on your coat before or after your on the chair- etc.) - remember that you are on a peice of equipment; not the monkey bar jungle gym - again, PAY ATTENTION. I have seen plenty of kids (generally) fall out of carriers and very few have gotten hurt beyond a broken rib, wrist, or ankle. I feel this is somewhat unfortunate as I would like to believe in natural selection. What do I know; $0.02.

[shoemanII]

as a side note, i wonder about the condition of the other restraint bars on that lift:

there are not many reasons to remove any restraint bars, other than cracking due to fatigue failure, localized burst from ice, or maybe a faulty pivot point. either way, if 14 bars were removed because of defects, then it can be assured that others of the same vintage and use will have similar defects, although in differing stage(s) of failure. the insurance inspector may have predicted restraint bar failure(s) at point in the future and decided to head it off before an "event."

regardless, please don't let your kids lean over on restraint bars to buckle their boots or say howdy to a friend below.

[andyh1962]

Disco, on Jan 23 2007, 02:47 PM, said:

I feel this is somewhat unfortunate as I would like to believe in natural selection. What do I know; $0.02.

So this discussion seems a bit like the discussion around wearing seat belts when in an automobile. The compliance rate for seat belt use in Canada is in the high 90% + (95%+?) while in the USA around 85% wear seat belts. The difference in seat belting rates means that 40,000 Americans die in car crashs every year. In Canada with 10% of the population the death rate is 2400 per year ( multiply by ten to compare equivalent population sizes since Canada has one tenth the population of the USA, the Canada rate would be 24000 per year for same size population. ) The difference of 16,000 to 17,000 extra deaths is the "natural selection" factor at work.

Personally I like to ski at places that have restraining bars on the chairlifts so I won't preach that some resorts need to fix their chairlifts, I will simply let natural market forces do the talking.

[Disco]

Seat belts and safety bars are not apples and apples. If anyone out there has a confirmed, reliable study showing the effectivness of a safety bar I'd like to see it. My opinion is that a new safety bar / seat belt system will be required and regulated in the future. The fact remains that if you just sit in the damn seat you'll be just fine without one. The carriers are not going to have a blowout, jump three lanes of traffic and smash into your seat on the way up the hill. Someone swilling brew and firing down whiskey isn't going to head on your carrier; nor will your carrier go into a spin during a blizzard. However, arguing platitudes is fun too. I've thought alot about it and I think we should make sure children get a better education and that people need to get along with each other better. I'm going to dedicate the rest of my days to World Peace. I love you all, even those who jump off perfectly good carriers.

[skiisme753]

The reasoning behind not having restraining bars is simple. The length of your ski lift at Alpine Valley is so short that it's not practical to have a bar. It creates more of a safety hazard to have them and the chances of falling from a lift are not high. Other ski resorts in Ohio don't have safety bars for the same reason.

[andyh1962]

Disco, on Jan 23 2007, 04:19 PM, said:

Seat belts and safety bars are not apples and apples. If anyone out there has a confirmed, reliable study showing the effectivness of a safety bar I'd like to see it. My opinion is that a new safety bar / seat belt system will be required and regulated in the future. The fact remains that if you just sit in the damn seat you'll be just fine without one. The carriers are not going to have a blowout, jump three lanes of traffic and smash into your seat on the way up the hill. Someone swilling brew and firing down whiskey isn't going to head on your carrier; nor will your carrier go into a spin during a blizzard. However, arguing platitudes is fun too. I've thought alot about it and I think we should make sure children get a better education and that people need to get along with each other better. I'm going to dedicate the rest of my days to World Peace. I love you all, even those who jump off perfectly good carriers.

I think I called the metal bar a restraining device (as in restraining assistance device) not a safety bar because I recognize that if someone really wants to meet with Darwin while riding up a chairlift, they will find a way to do so. I have been on chairlifts where the distance between towers was fairly high and the lift stopped suddenly. Riders in loaded chairs would find themselves going up and coming down fairly quickly. the up and down "wip" of the cable could be 10 feet or more. Scary. Two other conditions: wind storms and power outages. enough said. To world peace and harmony. Also to safe skiiing/ riding. I vote with my feet.