26 replies to this topic

[Peter]

I found a link to this thread on MSNBC. It has two forum members, one from Israel and one from Lebanon, giving live updates of their situations. It is really crazy to read.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread....47&page=1&pp=40

[Emax]

Wow - that's quite an education.

Sad as it all is, it's good to see folks on both sides of the fire line conversing as neighbors - concerned for each other's well being while the rockets fly by.

[liftmech]

I'll second that. I can't imagine what it must be like to live in a place where you matter-of-factly spend the night in a bomb shelter, let alone the fact that you have one built on to your home in the expectation of actually using it.

[skier691]

Yup, I can't believe that people can't just 'semi' get along. Hopefully this won't get AS crazy as it looks like it will. People just need to chill out. OK, 2 soliders are kidnapped. Not nice. OK, so now we blow each other up and destroy everything we have just rebuilt. Real friggin smart. Maybe Bush and his buddies can profit off this after oil/gas shoots even higher in price as result. Boy, how oil and 'bush' make the world go round

[Emax]

The following is a statement from the Free Muslim Coalition Against Terrorism. It's worth reading.


The Free Muslim Coalition Against Terrorism calls on the United States government to take an active role in limiting the fighting in Lebanon to Hezbollah infrastructure and for Arab governments to demand that Hezbollah be dismantled.

Several days ago the Hezbollah militia attacked the Israeli military and kidnapped two soldiers hoping they can exchange the soldiers for Hezbollah hostages imprisoned in Israel. Israel responded by attacking Lebanon's infrastructure. Israel has destroyed oil depots, bridges, seaports, electric transformers, air port and otherwise did enormous damage to Lebanon in the hope that the destruction of Lebanon would persuade the Lebanese government to dismantle Hezbollah and replace the militia with Lebanese soldiers. (Incidentally, the kidnapped Israel soldiers are Arab Muslims (Druze)).

The Free Muslims have been calling for the dismantling of Hezbollah for the last three years. We recognize that Hezbollah's loyalty is to Iran and not Lebanon. This is why Israel's attack on Lebanon's infrastructure rather than just Hezbollah is shortsighted, immoral and counterproductive. Israel's fight is with Hezbollah and not Lebanon nor the Lebanese government which has no control over Hezbollah.

The irony is that Israel itself recognizes that Lebanon is too weak to control Hezbollah but nevertheless holds Lebanon liable. If Israel wants to dismantle or destroy Hezbollah
Israel has to do it itself by attacking the militia directly. At the same time, the
Free Muslims recognize that a legitimate government must be responsible for the actions of terrorists and rogue elements that operate from its soil and Lebanon is no exception.
The United States and the Arab countries must work together to bring an end to this war, to dismantle Hezbollah and to strengthen the Lebanese military.

Lebanon is headed by a pro-western, pro-American government that would love for Hezbollah to disappear. The goal of the United States and Israel should be to strengthen the Lebanese government not weaken it. If Israel focuses its attack against Hezbollah the Lebanese government will be in a better position to dismantle Hezbollah and control the border with Israel. If Israel continues to attack non-Hezbollah infrastructure more and more Lebanese, including the Christians, Sunnis Muslims and Druze may unite behind Hezbollah and that would be catastrophic.

To respond to this article please post your comments on our Free speech zone at:
http://freemuslims.o...dex.php?id=1424


For more information, visit our website at www.freemuslims.org

[Ontariodude]

My opinion on this subject is pretty obvious. I put all of my support to Israel because what they are doing IS justified. 6 years ago the UN signed a resolution telling the government of Lebanon to get rid of HEZBOLLAH and they never did. Hezbollah started this conflict by going into Israeli territory and kidnapping 2 soldiers. BAD IDEA! Hezbollah has also regularily been sending rockets into Isreal on a daily or weekly basis for the past few years. BAD IDEA. All Israel is doing is defendeing themselves. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. I believe other countries (including Canada and the US) should join forces and destroy Hezbollah, Hamas, Syrian government, and Iran. Iran has stated that they want to use nukes to destroy Israel. i believe that getting rid of these people would benefit the world. Oh and N. Korea can't be forgetten either.

GO ISRAEL

GO CANADA (live here)

If there is anyone out there that disagrees with my comments i would like to see your comments.



PS - i am canadian and i am thinking of becoming a fighter pilot for the Canadian AIR Force.
-im not a conservative

i saw someone above complaining about oil prices. If you think its bad in America come to Canada. when unit and currency adjusted, 1 LITRE of gas in CANADA is $1.10 while it is $.80 in the US.

PS - that is in Canadain dollars (1 American dollar = .90 CAN dollars) and 4 litres are in a gallon. over$4 a gallon, thats right.

[Peter]

It is easy for you to say the US should go off and eliminate North Korea, Iran, Syria, and Labanon. I just don't think our military is strong enough to go after these countries. We are stretched way too thin with Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Emax]

"I believe other countries (including Canada and the US) should join forces and destroy Hezbollah, Hamas, Syrian government, and Iran."

I think that it's generally agreed that the world would be a far better place if all of these were GONE - but that's gonna' be a really big job. Perhaps you could get the Canadian, Russian and Chinese governments to invest some dollars for this endeavor. The U.S. would be more than happy to help in the effort.

[Ontariodude]

Skier, on Jul 19 2006, 06:16 PM, said:

It is easy for you to say the US should go off and eliminate North Korea, Iran, Syria, and Labanon. I just don't think our military is strong enough to go after these countries. We are stretched way too thin with Iraq and Afghanistan.

I can understand what you are saying with your military being stetched (its the same with the Canadian Forces also). If you look at what i said, it stated that other nations including the US could help. I agree that the US should not always be the leading force to resolve conflicts around the world. AMerica can't do everything.

All allied nations of the world including the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, and others within the UN should realize the threats these nations and organizations (Iran, Syria, N. Korea, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc.) have on their own countries. They need to step up. America is the only remaining superpower, but it isn't fair for people to say America can fix everything, they need their allies too.

As for the conflict in Lebanon, the Israelis seem to be getting fierce resistance on the ground even after bombing the crap out of them for the past week. I don't know what is going to happen but all i can say is I hope Israel prevails with minimal loss of life.

[LiftTech]

USA military personnel:
As of January 2005, there are some 250,000 soldiers in 130 country’s of, sailors, airmen, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen deployed in support of combat, peacekeeping, and deterrence operations. This figure does not include those forces normally present in Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom or Japan unless bases at those locations are actively supporting a combat operation. Furthermore, tours of duty in these locations are routine and not considered hardship tours. If one were to include these forces the number of deployed troops worldwide would be around 350,000.

Canada military personnel:
Today: 62,000 military personnel including 9,500 sailors, 19,500 soldiers, 14,500 air force personnel and 20,000 administrative and support personnel. There are also about 22,000 reservists.
Today: There are 30 surface ships, four submarines and 9,500 sailors in Canada's navy.

N. Korea military personnel:
I hear over a million,

As Emax said a big job but what the xxxx I’ll take on my 4 to start.

[Ontariodude]

North Korea has the highest ratio of military servicemen to its population in the world. 5% I hear.

Wow thats far from Canada's ratio: .002% (62,000 to 33,000,000) i hear the new prime minister (Stephen Harper) wants to make Canada's forces reach 90,000 strong.

[Emax]

"All allied nations of the world including the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, and others within the UN should realize the threats these nations and organizations (Iran, Syria, N. Korea, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc.) have on their own countries."

"In separate fits of (inebriated) passion, I have e-mailed the presidents of both Russia and China using nearly these same words. The point being: Isn't it time for rational minds wielding big bats to rid the planet of this never-ending problem? There seemed no point in contacting France, Germany or Italy. They're lost.

So what is this "never-ending problem"? It's religious fanaticism, that's what. People driven by fear of the perceived afterlife - guided and instructed by clerics with ulterior motives. It's a very old story that every civilization we know of has had to deal with. ALL religions are involved to some degree - each claiming to have its own "special deal" with "God". To the average human mind, this is a very strong influence - capable of driving otherwise rational people into irrational acts. Before you holler "FOUL", examine your own religious self, if you have one. For some (shabbily-justified) reasons, you feel "special" or "chosen" or "enlightened" - don't you? Beyond all other concepts of fairness - there exists your "specialness". 21st century human: That's bullshit. If we are to co-exist as a species on this fragile rock for any length of time (and so far, we've been here for but an eyeblink in the general scheme of things), we must construct some common formula for our behavior with respect to the rest of us. The assumption of "special" in any way other than personal performance just won't work. It won't.

If turning the entire quadrant of this planet that continually festers with this problem into a sea of silicon glass is the only solution, then so be it - consequences be damned. In the long run, we'll be better off.

[Ontariodude]

i agree it would be nice if we could all get along but it seems people like bin laden and the leaders of hamas and hezbollah are getting in the way.

another thing that concerns me is communist and tollitarian nations like CHina who treat their people like sh*t and get away with it. ANd dont forget all of those women in extremist muslim nations who can be killed for doing the smallest "wrong" thing. There is so much injustice in the world it can sometimes make me sick.

All i hope is for things to get better

PEACE OUT

[Emax]

"There is so much injustice in the world it can sometimes make me sick."

When you're sick, the first step on the road to recovery is removal of the source of infection.

Sorry - that's the way it works.

[okemopoma]

Lots of good and interesting points have been made here.

I agree with most of them.

I believe that all religions are the root of all evil in this world. But as long as humanity exists, so will religions. Look how the extreamist muslims treat their wonem, look how our extreamist christian president treats his people. Its insanity. He just outlawed stem cell research because its immoral. What a joke. Oh well. Forget a chance to cure cancer or hiv, it goes against the bible.
Makes me ill to see marines on tv praying in a circle just before they lock and load. Puke.

If humanity could only remember that it is just that, "human", we might have a chance. If only we could just admit that we are animals like any other. But no, we have advanced brains. We want to live forever, so we make up religions to make ourselves feel better while we are alive. Pitiful.
Now, I wonder what would happen if dogs got religion? They'd all kill each other, right? Thats where we are headed.

And it will happen. Like E-MAX said, our time on this planet is like a blink of an eye as compared to the history of the world. In our tiny dot in the timeline of the universe we will manage to kill the planet and ourselves in the process. A million years from now, some strange new life form will be digging up our old crap and trying to guess what happened to us.

Sometimes I think the best thing that could happen is if we just pushed all the big red buttons at once. Get it over with, start from scratch. As Maynard James Keenan once said "just flush it all away", "moms commin round to put it back the way it outta be".

I wish she would.

The history of the US is filled with violence and aggression. Now, this is way after we killed most of the native people and took their land, and after we forced the British out. As little as 150 years ago, if The People thought that they we being treated unfairly, they did something about it. Too much tax? Ok, lets get together, go to the governors/sheriffs house, drag him out, burn it down. Hey! No more taxes!
Thats oversimplified. But that was the idea, and it worked. Modern Americans are soft, complacent.
Just imagine if a few thousand of us got together and not marched, but stormed on one of the state capitals. Dragged out the Gov. and burned it down. " sorry, too much crap guys, we are in control now". The Feds would send in the marines to mow us all down, right? Maybe not. Its all on world wide tv. Could they kill that many of us on tv? Maybe so, maybe not. The point is, the only way anything is going to change is if we "the people" change it ourselves by force, voting is a joke as we all know. Dubya has been spending our money on whatever he wants. How come we have no say about it? How come nobody does anything about it? Somebody shot Lincoln for his policies.
No one in America has the balls to change anything anymore. Too sad. So we "stay the course", "mission accomplished". Puke.

I would happily leave this country behind and move to Canada, or even New Zealand if I could afford to.
I just got a raise at work (great!), Dang!, I only get to take home 30% of my raise after taxes. Thanks Dubya. Spend it well. Perhaps some new F-16's for Isreal would be in order. They do tend to get tired after dropping 27 tons of bombs or so.

The Fed. Gov. lets 95% of us keep just enough of our own money to get by. The other 5% rule the country and do what they want. Not fair people. Not fair at all.
Tax revolts used to be easier. You used to go pay your taxes in person. Now, the Feds have changed all that so its automatically deducted from your pay. How can you hold back money that you never even have or see?!!!!
Very smart of them. They have complete control. You dont even have the option to rebel or dissagree with anything they do.

This is what our President calls freedom and democracy. Its a load of crap. Most of us eat it up willingly and ask for seconds. Puke again!!

Hezbollah, or however you spell it, translated means The Party Of God. I dont agree with any of them, muslims, jews, christians, religious freaks in general. What I do find interesting is their willingness to fight and die for what they want and believe in. Nobody in America will do that. Our army go's to war in whichever way the rich people in control point. Its like a big business. Do what the boss says. I think its called Corporate Militarism.
War is good for America. Economy sluggish? Start a war! That will pick things up a bit.
We need tanks, hummers.....build, build, build!!!! Money, money, money!!!!!!
The crap in Isreal/Leb is just gravy for our Gov. They love it.

As I see it. Dubya's Gov. has two options now. One is to keep spending a trillion dollars a year blowing stuff up in the middle east, keep wasting US lives (and our money), stay there, take control of the oil and people. Then, its ours forever more.
Two is to just pull back, get out now, stop the death toll on our people, and stop spending our money. Let them kill each other. They have been killing each other for 1000 years. So what? Let em keep doing it.
Option # 2 has a problem though. We have hit Peak Oil production for the world. Not too much left. Say 50% of what was. If we leave, we have no say over whats left of the oil. We need it. China wants it. Our whole society is based on it. Too late for alternatives. There isnt enough time or money to get them in place before the black stuff runs out. So, I'm guessing our Gov. will go with option #1.

The wars will never end in our time, they have only just begun.

I'm guessing that in the next ten or maybe twenty years, things will be a lot different here in the good old US of A. Lets say oil/gas gets up to $7 a gallon and nobody can afford anything anymore, gas, heat, food, etc. The prepared will survive the longest.
People living in the country will outlast the city folk. Major crap will go down in the cities first, then branch out to the countrysides. But, thats a different horror tale yet to be played out. Time will tell which scenario unfolds.

The end is near now. Its only a matter of time.

It would be nice if I were dead and rotting in the soil before it all happens. What a relief.
My main fear is that I wont be.

[Emax]

OK, okemopoma - mostly agreed.

In my advancing age, however, I have gained something that you have yet to appreciate. No rebuke - just a prediction.

My experience working with Polish refugees for twenty years enlightened me to the fact that there really are "BAD" people in the world - those who intend nothing but harm to the rest of us. As Americans, we tend to assume that all people (outside of governments) think in about the same way: "live and let live". It ain't so. There really are "bad guys" who strive for nothing less than "the end". Just why is not an issue - it doesn't matter. Sadly, they're everywhere - even among us.

I was a war protestor in the sixties - one who got drafted and didn't have the "moxy" to escape the draft board by running to Canada or Mexico. I could have - I was living in a camper at the time - free to travel anywhere I wanted. But when I got the "draft letter" (Greetings!), something clicked. After the initial shock (I was twenty-five), it seemed that "the dues" were due. Payback time. Payback for what? Come on - use your imagination. Do you think that returning soldiers kiss the home runway for dramatic effect? Believe me, this corner of the planet - with its imperfect government - is sheer Nirvana when compared to any other option... because it WORKS. Yes, it costs us an ever increasing amount of our wherewithal to ensure the function of our open society - but believe me, it's worth it. The alternatives are far worse. I don't "wrap myself in the flag" - that's shallow and meaningless. But I do insist that those who benefit from the efforts of those who have laid down their lives to preserve this last best hope for humanity acknowledge that they are the privilaged among the earth's population.

That said, it follows that the "bad guys" have to go - one way or another. To them, we're the bad guys - but how is that justified? By blind belief in a human-engineered fairy tale? That's bullshit. Our own human-engineered fairy tales are equally bullshit. The very best concept to come out of the "manifesto" of the Bible is the Golden Rule. Adherence to it - real adherence - would eliminate most of the world's current problems.

It's time for "religion" - in all its ridiculous incarnations - TO GO the way of all other poor ideas - in the long history of poor ideas.

Bud out.

This post has been edited by Emax: 23 July 2006 - 09:45 AM

[mikest2]

Very well said Emax

[okemopoma]

Points well taken Bud.
My mom used to always remind me as a kid that we lived in the greatest country in the world, and that I should appreciate that. I had no clue what that meant at the time. As do most of us in America today I think.
I imagine that we do live better and free'er than most nations in the world.
The price we pay and have paid is huge for this. My question is, why does (did) it have to be this way?
Why does there have to be "bad guys"? WTF??
I have no answers. Only opinions.
As we say in New England, "it will all sugar out in the end".

[Ontariodude]

There is now a UN ceasefire. I wonder how this will work out and if it will hold .

[Emax]

One can hope - but I doubt that this will be the end of it.