Until I went to Kirkwood I've never seen a lift with a safety bar. They are no substitute for common sense. I've never been worried about falling off a lift. But I understand the need for them as people do stupid things!
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The Safety Bar...
Started by Benbosnow, Jun 23 2006 10:15 PM
107 replies to this topic
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Posted 26 June 2007 - 05:36 PM
Being in the east, skiing in vermont and new york, most, not all lifts have safety bars, and they can serve a purpose. There was a case back in the late 80's where a newly installed lift, the triple chair at belleayre, threw three people off the chair around tower 1 or 2, all survived, but with injuries. What happened was the lift's takeoff was very steep, and somehow the chair could swing very far back, and it threw three people off, adults i believe. They did not have the safety bar down. This of course sparked a lawsuit, we are a litigious society arent we? The lift was re-designed to my knowledge, and I think it has since been replaced with a quad, but i'm not 100% sure, it was a long time ago that I learned of this.
As for the vermont law, requireing all lifts to have a safety bar which will not yield to forward pressure, this seems to only be selectivly enforced. One example is the single chair at Mad River Glen, the footrest, is not a pull down, but rather is hinged on the side of the chair, that you close like a gate, i think some older mueller centerpoles had this design. I've ridden this chair many times and i can tell you, to open the bar, you push it forward, it will definatly yield to forward pressure. The original single chair is currently being dismantled, but is being restored, it will have new single chairs with the same style footrest.
Also in vermont, i can tell you that there does exist a chairlift without restraint bars, its the Ski Baba lift at Mount Snow. In all fairness, this lift is truly a beginner lift and is maybe 5 feet off the ground. Mt. Snow also had another one, a really cool home-built lift, the Mixing Bowl chair, it was chain driven on a track, went really slow, was also a beginner lift, it was quite unique, it was low off the ground, but I do believe though i'm not 100% sure that it did not have safety bars. It has since been replaced with a magic carpet - it was a pretty short lift. So it seems like the VT tramway board is not steadfast in this rule.
As for me personally, i was a ski racer and a ski instructor, as a racer, never used them, as an instructor, I was required to, so now i really only use them on long lifts that have footrests, except on Hall's, there footrests are too short for a tall guy like myself, so I never use them if i'm on a Hall lift, those carriers are really not made for tall people, and one of the mountains I ski regularly, all 8 lifts are halls, i never use the bar there.
As for the vermont law, requireing all lifts to have a safety bar which will not yield to forward pressure, this seems to only be selectivly enforced. One example is the single chair at Mad River Glen, the footrest, is not a pull down, but rather is hinged on the side of the chair, that you close like a gate, i think some older mueller centerpoles had this design. I've ridden this chair many times and i can tell you, to open the bar, you push it forward, it will definatly yield to forward pressure. The original single chair is currently being dismantled, but is being restored, it will have new single chairs with the same style footrest.
Also in vermont, i can tell you that there does exist a chairlift without restraint bars, its the Ski Baba lift at Mount Snow. In all fairness, this lift is truly a beginner lift and is maybe 5 feet off the ground. Mt. Snow also had another one, a really cool home-built lift, the Mixing Bowl chair, it was chain driven on a track, went really slow, was also a beginner lift, it was quite unique, it was low off the ground, but I do believe though i'm not 100% sure that it did not have safety bars. It has since been replaced with a magic carpet - it was a pretty short lift. So it seems like the VT tramway board is not steadfast in this rule.
As for me personally, i was a ski racer and a ski instructor, as a racer, never used them, as an instructor, I was required to, so now i really only use them on long lifts that have footrests, except on Hall's, there footrests are too short for a tall guy like myself, so I never use them if i'm on a Hall lift, those carriers are really not made for tall people, and one of the mountains I ski regularly, all 8 lifts are halls, i never use the bar there.
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Posted 28 November 2007 - 05:14 PM
As one who grew up riding lifts out west without safety bars (and I still ride without putting them down unless I am instructing children in the ski school), this accident has made me think about using it.
Skier Falls from Dipper Express at Heavenly
I guess it is just a habit that one needs to start. I can be riding with five other instructors on a six-pack and we do not use the safety bar. Then again, helmets did not become mainstream until recently, so maybe we can make it a habit if it becomes required (just like seatbelts).
As one gets older, it is funny how things like life insurance and getting permanently injured or worse crosses one's mind. I stopped doing backflips years ago when I realized I was not an invincible person (and with the birth of my now seven year-old son). Puts things into perspective.
Too bad there is not a way to make a safety bar drop and rise automatically when loading and unloading respectively. The moving parts that would be required for the carrier would probably be expensive, hard to service and retrofit to existing carriers, and subject to breakdown when riders try to override or turn off the safety bar feature (such as try to stop the bar from dropping down). Plus, if the lift breaks down for some reason, there would have to be some kind of safety release to allow ski patrol to evac riders. However, it would have to be located in a place that the patrollers can access, but that the guest cannot reach while riding the carrier.
Do any of you that do or have worked in lift maintenance and lift development know of anything that has been tried with an automatic safety bar feature? (Emax...Liftmech...any others out there)?
Of course, the best safety feature is common sense.
Skier Falls from Dipper Express at Heavenly
I guess it is just a habit that one needs to start. I can be riding with five other instructors on a six-pack and we do not use the safety bar. Then again, helmets did not become mainstream until recently, so maybe we can make it a habit if it becomes required (just like seatbelts).
As one gets older, it is funny how things like life insurance and getting permanently injured or worse crosses one's mind. I stopped doing backflips years ago when I realized I was not an invincible person (and with the birth of my now seven year-old son). Puts things into perspective.
Too bad there is not a way to make a safety bar drop and rise automatically when loading and unloading respectively. The moving parts that would be required for the carrier would probably be expensive, hard to service and retrofit to existing carriers, and subject to breakdown when riders try to override or turn off the safety bar feature (such as try to stop the bar from dropping down). Plus, if the lift breaks down for some reason, there would have to be some kind of safety release to allow ski patrol to evac riders. However, it would have to be located in a place that the patrollers can access, but that the guest cannot reach while riding the carrier.
Do any of you that do or have worked in lift maintenance and lift development know of anything that has been tried with an automatic safety bar feature? (Emax...Liftmech...any others out there)?
Of course, the best safety feature is common sense.
This post has been edited by Phoenix: 28 November 2007 - 05:35 PM
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Posted 28 November 2007 - 09:22 PM
About the automatic lowering/raising safety bars, they are a disaster. There is a section in the Doppelmayr thesis about how someone in Europe was leaning over and had the bar lower and lock on their back. I can't remember if the person fell off or was otherwise injured. Also automatic raising of the bar could catch people by surprise and cause problems.
This post has been edited by Skier: 28 November 2007 - 09:22 PM
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Posted 28 November 2007 - 11:55 PM
SkiMadRiver, on Jun 26 2007, 08:36 PM, said:
Being in the east, skiing in vermont and new york, most, not all lifts have safety bars, and they can serve a purpose. There was a case back in the late 80's where a newly installed lift, the triple chair at belleayre, threw three people off the chair around tower 1 or 2, all survived, but with injuries. What happened was the lift's takeoff was very steep, and somehow the chair could swing very far back, and it threw three people off, adults i believe. They did not have the safety bar down. This of course sparked a lawsuit, we are a litigious society arent we? The lift was re-designed to my knowledge, and I think it has since been replaced with a quad, but i'm not 100% sure, it was a long time ago that I learned of this.
As for the vermont law, requireing all lifts to have a safety bar which will not yield to forward pressure, this seems to only be selectivly enforced. One example is the single chair at Mad River Glen, the footrest, is not a pull down, but rather is hinged on the side of the chair, that you close like a gate, i think some older mueller centerpoles had this design. I've ridden this chair many times and i can tell you, to open the bar, you push it forward, it will definatly yield to forward pressure. The original single chair is currently being dismantled, but is being restored, it will have new single chairs with the same style footrest.
Also in vermont, i can tell you that there does exist a chairlift without restraint bars, its the Ski Baba lift at Mount Snow. In all fairness, this lift is truly a beginner lift and is maybe 5 feet off the ground. Mt. Snow also had another one, a really cool home-built lift, the Mixing Bowl chair, it was chain driven on a track, went really slow, was also a beginner lift, it was quite unique, it was low off the ground, but I do believe though i'm not 100% sure that it did not have safety bars. It has since been replaced with a magic carpet - it was a pretty short lift. So it seems like the VT tramway board is not steadfast in this rule.
As for me personally, i was a ski racer and a ski instructor, as a racer, never used them, as an instructor, I was required to, so now i really only use them on long lifts that have footrests, except on Hall's, there footrests are too short for a tall guy like myself, so I never use them if i'm on a Hall lift, those carriers are really not made for tall people, and one of the mountains I ski regularly, all 8 lifts are halls, i never use the bar there.
As for the vermont law, requireing all lifts to have a safety bar which will not yield to forward pressure, this seems to only be selectivly enforced. One example is the single chair at Mad River Glen, the footrest, is not a pull down, but rather is hinged on the side of the chair, that you close like a gate, i think some older mueller centerpoles had this design. I've ridden this chair many times and i can tell you, to open the bar, you push it forward, it will definatly yield to forward pressure. The original single chair is currently being dismantled, but is being restored, it will have new single chairs with the same style footrest.
Also in vermont, i can tell you that there does exist a chairlift without restraint bars, its the Ski Baba lift at Mount Snow. In all fairness, this lift is truly a beginner lift and is maybe 5 feet off the ground. Mt. Snow also had another one, a really cool home-built lift, the Mixing Bowl chair, it was chain driven on a track, went really slow, was also a beginner lift, it was quite unique, it was low off the ground, but I do believe though i'm not 100% sure that it did not have safety bars. It has since been replaced with a magic carpet - it was a pretty short lift. So it seems like the VT tramway board is not steadfast in this rule.
As for me personally, i was a ski racer and a ski instructor, as a racer, never used them, as an instructor, I was required to, so now i really only use them on long lifts that have footrests, except on Hall's, there footrests are too short for a tall guy like myself, so I never use them if i'm on a Hall lift, those carriers are really not made for tall people, and one of the mountains I ski regularly, all 8 lifts are halls, i never use the bar there.
As Lawyers became more prevalent so did restraining bars.
The earlier bars such as on the old mad river lift (new ones I believe will be different per ANSI code) were primarily for resting your legs, the upper bar that came across in the lap area was a handle to close the foot rest.
I have heard many folks mention that the restraining bar will not hold you in the event that one were to fall against it, but I have not heard of one single documented case to back this up. Yes, some kids have slid under the bar.
I have heard many documented cases of people (that were not using the restraining bar that was provided) that have fallen out of a chair.
As a side note, the restraining bar as provided to the ski area will hold the pressure of a skier going against it.
Yes, metal will fatigue near a weld over time, it is up to you the mechanic to know this and maintain the product in the appropriate manner.
Some of the older lifts do have welds in a free length of bar in front of the skiers lap. And these welds do break.
When this has happened, I did not just weld the broken joint I would add an internal reinforcing piece as a backer for my weld.
This post has been edited by chasl: 28 November 2007 - 11:59 PM
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Posted 29 November 2007 - 08:49 PM
My name doesn't mean I ski a lot. It means that I'm big, and I'm a skier.
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Posted 29 November 2007 - 08:57 PM
Snoqualmie guy, on Nov 29 2007, 08:54 PM, said:
If you fell off a lift it would most likely hurt just as bad if it was a high speed than fixed grip.
I know, but if a high-speed lift suddenly stopped, you'd be more likely to fly off, right?
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Posted 29 November 2007 - 08:58 PM
The viability of the restraint (safety) bar depends on so many factors. The rate at which the rope is moving, the rate at which it decelerates, the mass of the people involved, and the angle of the rope compare to the ground, and the amount of friction between the person on the lift and the chair.
If you are on a lift that is hauling, on a relatively flat section, and it stops super fast, and the chairs are covered in those vinyl seat pads, and it is icing up, and you have ice on your pants....I could see it being very easy to fly off if you are leaning forward. Don't say that these conditions are hard to have occur. Think of a powder day where it is warming up and a snowboarder is on the lift (yes, I'm a snowboarder, and yes, some of us sit down, which causes snow and ice to deposit on the nether region) and somebody inexperienced falls at the bottom.
On the flip side, with a standard rubber (foam rubber?) seat, on a steep uphill section, when the lift is already going slow, even emergency shut down/brake is unlikely to toss you.
Does the bar do all things, for all people, in all circumstances? No, but it can help. I have, for a fact, slid forward more than once on lifts. Would I have fallen? Probably not because I lean back and am careful, but if I had been leaning forward, it is very possible. As for the people who slam it down on your head, I tend to get rude at that point.
If you are on a lift that is hauling, on a relatively flat section, and it stops super fast, and the chairs are covered in those vinyl seat pads, and it is icing up, and you have ice on your pants....I could see it being very easy to fly off if you are leaning forward. Don't say that these conditions are hard to have occur. Think of a powder day where it is warming up and a snowboarder is on the lift (yes, I'm a snowboarder, and yes, some of us sit down, which causes snow and ice to deposit on the nether region) and somebody inexperienced falls at the bottom.
On the flip side, with a standard rubber (foam rubber?) seat, on a steep uphill section, when the lift is already going slow, even emergency shut down/brake is unlikely to toss you.
Does the bar do all things, for all people, in all circumstances? No, but it can help. I have, for a fact, slid forward more than once on lifts. Would I have fallen? Probably not because I lean back and am careful, but if I had been leaning forward, it is very possible. As for the people who slam it down on your head, I tend to get rude at that point.
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Posted 29 November 2007 - 09:59 PM
Logically though, it seems to me like when the chair stops suddenly, inertia causes the chair to swing forward first, then back. So I always feel like the more sudden stops push me further back into the seat, not out towards the edge.
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Posted 29 November 2007 - 11:14 PM
Skier's right. The most likely time to fall off is eaither doing something stupid or when the lift bounces for some reason. Wild Side at Summit West does it really bad when it's full on weekends and I can all most feel waightless, which is a scary feeling.
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Why couldn't they of come up with "Global Cooling"?
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Posted 30 November 2007 - 05:53 AM
Skier, on Nov 29 2007, 10:59 PM, said:
Logically though, it seems to me like when the chair stops suddenly, inertia causes the chair to swing forward first, then back. So I always feel like the more sudden stops push me further back into the seat, not out towards the edge.
That is correct. After swing forward first then back AND then the chair go up and down a bit little.
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Posted 30 November 2007 - 09:43 AM
Safety bars, restraint bars, tard bars, arm bars , comfort bars. In my own recolection the majority of the older lifts never had such devices. For many many years chairlift riders felt safe and were safe riding aerial lifts. Some where, some one thought that a restraint bar would be a nice option or some government agency decided that (even though riding chairlifts was safer than driving your own car accross town)they would try to make such a dangerous activity safer for the public because we obviously can't decide or make our own choices on what is safe. For those people who do fall out of chairs the most likely cause is their own stupidity and lack of attention. Face it when you are suspended 30 feet off of the ground you have to take some of the responsibility for your own safety and just PAY ATTENTION. This is not a place for horse play , binding adjustments , boot adjustments, or scratching your a--. Truly I feel sorry for the innocent folks that do get injured falling out of aerial trams, but the number is small on comparison to all of the safe successful rides that we do provide. There will always be gravity , planes will fall from the sky. bridges will collapse , trains will derail. some people will die before their time , darwinisim will remain. no matter how dilligent we are to protect our charges.
This post has been edited by aug: 30 November 2007 - 09:45 AM
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Posted 30 November 2007 - 09:54 AM
zeedotcom, on Nov 29 2007, 09:58 PM, said:
If you are on a lift that is hauling, on a relatively flat section, and it stops super fast...
If it stops 'super fast' there is something wrong with the braking system. Yes, there is a maximum stopping distance, but there is also a minimum distance. From my experience both riding the lifts and working on them, abrupt stops are not exactly normal and I'd go as far as to say almost nonexistent.
Chasl- I once got my @$$ chewed for welding a bar without the backing material
suffice it to say I have a supply of 7/8" bolts with no heads for this very purpose. I also spent two days with the yoke and powder this summer inspecting my bars, and we had our certified welder repair them. While I still wouldn't call them 'safety' bars, I do feel better about them restraining people.
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Posted 30 November 2007 - 10:06 AM
The Coyote and Roadrunner lifts at Mt. High (two Yan doubles) usually bounce when they stop. It's pretty scary, especially when it stops over the Woodworth Gulch. 
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Posted 01 December 2007 - 11:15 AM
Skier, on Nov 29 2007, 10:59 PM, said:
Logically though, it seems to me like when the chair stops suddenly, inertia causes the chair to swing forward first, then back. So I always feel like the more sudden stops push me further back into the seat, not out towards the edge.
It seems to me that would depend on how easily the chair swings, and on detachable chairlifts where this scenario would most likely occur do not swing back and forth very easily. Think about what happens when you slam on the brakes. You go foward. I have been subject to about a 150 foot stop at 1100 fpm. Yes, I did have the saftey bar down. Would I have fallen if it wasn't down? I think not. The lifts are designed to be safe and not throw someone off during an emergency stop with or without the bars down. If they didn't take that into consideration, there would be a considerably larger number of accidents in the industry. If you just use common sense and don't lean over to adjust a binding or a buckle or something, you won't fall off the lift even in an emergency stop.
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"Today's problems cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them." -Albert Einstein
"Today's problems cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them." -Albert Einstein
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