107 replies to this topic

[Peter]

I don't think people fall out too often. If you grow up without them, it is no big deal. The high speed lifts which go fast and stop fast virtually all have them anyways. One notable exception is Alta, Utah which has no bars on any lifts. The fixed grips that don't have them don't seem easy to fall out of because they don't move around so much. Also, I have never seen a sign on a microwave about cats.

[liftmech]

Unless the bar latches down and sits very near your legs or waist, it's not going to prevent you from falling out. I wish people would understand that.

[mikest2]

liftmech, on Aug 4 2006, 11:28 AM, said:

Unless the bar latches down and sits very near your legs or waist, it's not going to prevent you from falling out. I wish people would understand that.

The only people that have ever slid out from under a safety bar at our resort have already been dead. It is safe to assume that safety bars can reduce the number of falls from carriers, much as helmets can help avoid injuries. If you work for me: you will wear your fall arrest gear when required, your hard hat when required, steel toes, safety glasses and hearing protection. If you work for me you will use your safety bar. It is definitely a matter of personal choice! ............mine
Don't use proper personal protective equipment = don't work here.
Don't use safety bar = don't work here.

All anything has to do is save one thing once and it is worth all the effort and all the money. It is difficult to tell if they work if no one gets hurt, but I'm not about to take them off to prove my theory.

[LiftTech]

Boldly put Mikest2 and I concur, In the 27 years of working in lift maintenance I’ve seen far, far to many people hit the ground from heights up around 40 some odd feet, the first was 27 feet, she broke her neck in 3 places and her back in 2. An 8 year old boy fell 34 feet and one of our employees caught him and he (both) fortunately walked away, A 54 year old male falls 19’ onto ice and the ice was red for 6’ around his face instantly, (For those of you who enjoy campaign power that stuff, what he fell on, can be found in you local supermarket in the frozen food section.). I could go on and on. The only common element is the fact that in all cases the bar was up or not being used, some unfortunately did originate from the bottom but many from beyond the operators sight and control, I’ve learned to fear responding to these calls as very few turn out well. I’ve seen a 7300’ 850 hp quad detach go into full regen at 1000’ fpm and the forward SCR’s did not turn off, although the start contacts blew open and two line side mov’s and fuses blew not before the chair seat nearly hit the haul rope, it was luck that it happened when no one was on the lift, would you want to be without a bar or not hanging on? You have control over your actions but you have no control over others, does anyone know why we do a Poma power fault test daily and what happens when all 3 brakes come on at the same time? The safety bar is another form of Personal Protective Equipment, please, please use it if you have one, if not sit back and hang on, if they call you chicken, cluck at them. Not one of us wishes to read or hear of you as another static. I’m not saying that you will not fall out if you use the bar but it will significantly reduce the chances of you hitting the ground. The thing to always remember is that in all accidents the extent of ones injuries is only determined by luck. Feel lucky, don’t use it and don’t ski here?

[liftmech]

My point is based upon the facts that the so-called safety bar is a) made of thin-walled tubing and b) hinged for easy raising and lowering. I feel that depending on it as a safety device is placing a bit too much trust in it. That said, mikest2 does have a point, in that it is one more thing to get in the way of falling out of a chair. I just don't thing it will prevent that from happening reliably enough to say it's a safety item.

[mikest2]

liftmech, on Aug 11 2006, 11:19 AM, said:

My point is based upon the facts that the so-called safety bar is a) made of thin-walled tubing and b) hinged for easy raising and lowering. I feel that depending on it as a safety device is placing a bit too much trust in it. That said, mikest2 does have a point, in that it is one more thing to get in the way of falling out of a chair. I just don't thing it will prevent that from happening reliably enough to say it's a safety item.

For Liftech:
We did once have an uncontrolled acceleration on a new DCS500 drive(1989), no-one on the lift, the edge connectors on the drive's cards were of the slide on type and I think we lost Nfeedback or Nref and the drive went balls to the wall instantly. The chairs were right flat back against the haul rope.

For Liftmech:
I failed to mention, in Canada, due to the Z-98 wording, it is a "restraining device" not a "safety bar" and no-one has ever shown me the design factors of the aforementioned device.

[liftmech]

Me either. The restraining device is the item I am most often repairing on my carriers; usually it breaks in half nowhere near a weld or other stress point. Anyone know if any code or law that requires their use also stipulates that they be built a bit beefier?

[LiftTech]

ANSI B77.1-2006 states, “Qualified Engineers shall design the carriers and all components in accordance with accepted practices of design.” Also “For aerial lifts operating primarily for foot passengers, each chair shall be equipped with a restraining device that will not open under forward pressure.” Vermont say’s, “ Each chair shall be equipped with a restraint bar, which shall not yield to forward pressure.” And different this year if approved, “The restraint bar shall be fully closed except when embarking or disembarking the lift.” So they both, ANSI and VT, call it a restraint device and they leave it up to the engineers to decide the yield point of the device, So I think for the most part, when they are not damaged in any way, they would meet code. The problem is that most Engineers do not account for something, so there are failures, and not just the safety bar, I’ve welded more seat bars than any other part on the chair, but that could be it’s own topic.

[Ontariodude]

In Ontario, all ski lifts have bars and in 99% of cases, people actually use them. At the local Muskoka hill, Hidden Valley Highlands (3 faces and 100 vert. metres), virtually everybody uses the safety bar. At Blue Mountain, (220 vert. metres), pretty much everyone uses them too.
When I went out west to Alberta a few years ago, it looked like pretty much everybody used the bar. The same was for Quebec when I went to Le Massif and Mont. St.-Anne last March.

My opinion:
I like the bar because it feels unnatural not to use it (since I grew up with it) and you get in trouble if you don't use it.

This post has been edited by Ontariodude: 14 August 2006 - 08:34 AM

[Kicking Horse]

The only way keep someone from falling off a chair is to use OTSR. (what they use on roller coasters).

Otherwise it's a just a waste of Steel.

[iceberg210]

I think another part of the safety bar equation is not as much the actual restraint the bar may give but the appearance of something that might prevent you from going anywhere. There are certainly bars that are a lot more serious then others especially if you look at the HSQ bars for Dopp or Poma but other such as the ones on the old FG Dopps or even ones on early CTECs or late Thiokals they would stop anybody. I think for most people its the placebo effect. Will it stop me? Probally not but mabey it makes them feel safer and at the end of the day that may be the only purpose some of the real wimpy ones serve.

[Ram-Brand]

In Europe the lifts have safty bars and the most of them have footrests, too.


Lifts with safty bars for childs close the bar automatically. This bars have no footrests.




The safty bar gives me a feeling of a security.




In America the compensation for damages are high.

Can I take the ski resort to court if I fall out a lift without safty bars?
So I can gain wealth!

This post has been edited by Ram-Brand: 11 November 2006 - 02:24 AM

[Peter]

No, in states where bars aren't required, you would have no case against a resort. However, if there was not a bar for some reason in a state where bars are required, you might have a case.

[Lift Kid]

Although the bar might make you "feel" safer, it really is no different than riding without one. The only reason to use a saftey bar, in my opinion, is as a foot rest. However, I tend to use it on really long fixed grips like the C chair at Breckenridge, but mostly to lean on. I also use it on really high chairlifts or just plain creepy lifts.

[andyh1962]

Lift Kid, on Nov 11 2006, 04:07 PM, said:

Although the bar might make you "feel" safer, it really is no different than riding without one. The only reason to use a saftey bar, in my opinion, is as a foot rest. However, I tend to use it on really long fixed grips like the C chair at Breckenridge, but mostly to lean on. I also use it on really high chairlifts or just plain creepy lifts.

OK fine "restraint device" not safety bar. For those who are only able to think inside a square box...

Several stories, both happened while working as a Ski Patrol at an Ontario resort. At Ontario resorts ALL persons riding chairlifts are required to lower the restraining bar. (Why call it a retraining bar? because it keeps stupid people from falling out.) On this day 4 young men were seen riding a Quad Chair with the restraining bar in the up position.

Ski Patrollers riding a parallel ski lift were able to get to the top of the hill first and stop the young men for a chat. Question asked by Ski Patrollers to the young men. "Why were you riding the lift with the restraining bar up when the rules say, and all the signs say, restrain bars must be lowered. Answer back from young men: "because we needed room to put our racing knee pads and elbow pads on and the restraining bar was in the way" DIRECT QUOTE. Skiers were politely told by Patrollers that this area of Ontario where the Ski Resort was, was subject to frequent Electrical Outages and therefore the ski lift could stop unexpectedly at any time.

I did not say that all people that fall out of chairlifts are stupid. I said that the restraining bars keep stupid people within an exceptable range of gravity balance that would otherwise ordinarily allow them to lean forward and therefore cause other laws of motion to kick into place, bringing about results unexpected by the stupid person but understood by most reasonably intelligent people.

Another resort, different year. A mid week ski patroller as part of daily duties decides to stand near the top of a Quad chair and politely remind the young kids the correct place where they should be raising the restraining bar: " Next time please wait until you pass this point before raising the restraining bar. Thank you." The kids had been raising the bar and moving forward in the chairs, while over a tower, still 35 feet in the air. One week later, on this patroller's day off, a child fell out of the chair, while preparing to off load. This happened about 10 feet uphill from the point where this patroller had been standing during the season to give his education talk. If the child had started his preparation to offload back where other students were doing it he would have fallen 25 feet and been hurt.

Several reasons for having restraining bars.

It keeps people inside a box with defined borders, mostly so that their center of balance does not move so far forward in the chair that they are no longer in the chair...

It keeps them from moving around and adjusting clothing in way that might cause them to forget where they are...

It is supposed to help remind them to stay seated until they reach a point of the chairlift ride (don't do it until you pass this sign) where falling out from height will not kill them (except the ones that really want to meet Darwin real bad, can't help everyone in this world, just the ones that are smart enough to know good advice when they see it. )

On an off topic, yes I agree that restraining bars can break, don't rely on them to save you. A few years ago in Toronto ( Ontario Canada ) a high paid investment guy decided to make a regular habit of throwing his full body weight against the windows of the skyscraper building he worked in. (from the inside, 20 stories up) He did it several times a week for several months. One day while doing this, a window that he hit (supposed to be unbreakable glass) failed. The high priced investment guy hit the pavement 20 stories down. Had an instant meeting with Darwin. High paid does not mean smart.

Don't push your luck.




Also it gives

[liftmech]

I recently checked out a new CTEC-style chair with a restraining bar. Their design (don't know if it's new this season or not) actually runs the lap part of the bar closer to your legs so it is more difficult to fall out of the chair. The bar also seems pretty skookum, more so than the old Poma types I normally work on. Looks good.

[artfart]

i ski in the east and any time im alone on the lift i like to leave the bar up but most of the time some one yells at me to put it down(mostly ski patrol)

[artfart]

kaldini, on Aug 1 2006, 12:04 PM, said:

Interesting. I´m living and skiing in Europe. Here every lift must have a safety bar (and also has a foot rest). Its law. And you have to close it. In some beginners areas the lifties have to look that everybody closes the bar. Otherwise they stop the lift, call the person to close it and then the lift starts again.
Last winter I was with some friends in Canada and there we rode our first "safety bar less" lift. Well, I didn´t feel very comfortable. But wihle I´m riding a lift, I usually make photos, count chairs and towers and so on. So I like to know that there is some solid metal stopping me from falling down. Also I always have a rucksack with me (I hate to take it of for lifting). In Europe no problem, because there is the safety bar. In Canada I nearly always had to take it off (because the lifties said, sometimes I was lucky and I ignored them). Also isn´t there a problem if a lift makes an emergency stop? Don´t people fall out of the lift? I think its amusing, the US as the country where you have a sign on your microwave showing " no cats in here" (and all the other things people got money for) and then no saftey bars on chair lifts.

name one time when the lift maks an emegency stop and the bar saved you from falling

[SkiBachelor]

A while back, the gearbox on the Pine Marten Express (the former HSQ) failed and people at the bottom fell out of the chair.

The restraining bar can help in some instances, but the probability of a lift having a major failure are slim. You're more likely to die driving to or from the mountain than on a chairlift, but everyone probably already knows that.

[Snoqualmie guy]

I've been on a triple that had no bar, the lift was going full speed and we did a E-stop and nothing happened. I know it was a fixed grip. Also it has happened to me on a HSQ and it happened, all that happened was the chair did alot of swinging but none of us fell fowards. I don't think bars are too important unless its for a beginner.