Hello everyone.
I work for a bearing manufacturer and I wanted to get some feedback from you about the types of bearings you replace in ski lifts and where the bearings are located in the lifts.
Our bearings were spec'd in many, many years ago by Ski Lift manufacturers, but we have little information on where the bearings are actually used. We know that our bearing materials work and that the manufacturers have been satisfied with their performance.
Another problem is that we have materials that would be new to the industry, but we're sure will last longer and will require less maintenance.
Right now we are looking to sample these "new" products to prove out their performance.
I'd appreciate any feedback you can provide.
0
Bearings Used in Ski Lift
Started by TCBey, Feb 07 2006 12:21 PM
13 replies to this topic
#2
-
- Administrator II
- 5,906 Posts:
lift mechanic
- Interests:Many.
Posted 07 February 2006 - 12:31 PM
Where to start... On a fixed grip left such as those SLIs you refer to, the majority of bearings are used on the towers inside the sheaves. There can be a few in the motor room for the drive shafts, but outside of that there are only the large bearings in the bullwheels.
On a detachable, however, there are dozens upon dozens of bearings just in the tire banks. Add to that the ones in the grips, and you have the makings of a large bearing order.
I maintain a 1986 Poma detach; I change 50 to 60 sheaves a summer, and about half of those include bearing failures. Occasionally I'll replace the ones on the tire axles, and the support rollers on the grips.
What kind of 'new materials' do you have? In my experience the bearings we use fail because the grease inside does not stay viscous in low temperatures. This results in half the rollers inside being lubricated and the other half rusting in place. In the grips we can fix this by heating the bearings (we rebuild the grips every five years so they are brought into the shop on a somewhat regular basis) but the sheaves stay outside 24/7. As someone else on the board has stated, bringing a bearing outside and mounting it in the weather is a recipe for failure.
On a detachable, however, there are dozens upon dozens of bearings just in the tire banks. Add to that the ones in the grips, and you have the makings of a large bearing order.
I maintain a 1986 Poma detach; I change 50 to 60 sheaves a summer, and about half of those include bearing failures. Occasionally I'll replace the ones on the tire axles, and the support rollers on the grips.
What kind of 'new materials' do you have? In my experience the bearings we use fail because the grease inside does not stay viscous in low temperatures. This results in half the rollers inside being lubricated and the other half rusting in place. In the grips we can fix this by heating the bearings (we rebuild the grips every five years so they are brought into the shop on a somewhat regular basis) but the sheaves stay outside 24/7. As someone else on the board has stated, bringing a bearing outside and mounting it in the weather is a recipe for failure.
Member, Department of Ancient Technology, Colorado chapter.
#3
-
- Member
- 7 Posts:
New User
Posted 07 February 2006 - 01:09 PM
liftmech, on Feb 7 2006, 03:31 PM, said:
Where to start... On a fixed grip left such as those SLIs you refer to, the majority of bearings are used on the towers inside the sheaves. There can be a few in the motor room for the drive shafts, but outside of that there are only the large bearings in the bullwheels.
On a detachable, however, there are dozens upon dozens of bearings just in the tire banks. Add to that the ones in the grips, and you have the makings of a large bearing order.
I maintain a 1986 Poma detach; I change 50 to 60 sheaves a summer, and about half of those include bearing failures. Occasionally I'll replace the ones on the tire axles, and the support rollers on the grips.
What kind of 'new materials' do you have? In my experience the bearings we use fail because the grease inside does not stay viscous in low temperatures. This results in half the rollers inside being lubricated and the other half rusting in place. In the grips we can fix this by heating the bearings (we rebuild the grips every five years so they are brought into the shop on a somewhat regular basis) but the sheaves stay outside 24/7. As someone else on the board has stated, bringing a bearing outside and mounting it in the weather is a recipe for failure.
On a detachable, however, there are dozens upon dozens of bearings just in the tire banks. Add to that the ones in the grips, and you have the makings of a large bearing order.
I maintain a 1986 Poma detach; I change 50 to 60 sheaves a summer, and about half of those include bearing failures. Occasionally I'll replace the ones on the tire axles, and the support rollers on the grips.
What kind of 'new materials' do you have? In my experience the bearings we use fail because the grease inside does not stay viscous in low temperatures. This results in half the rollers inside being lubricated and the other half rusting in place. In the grips we can fix this by heating the bearings (we rebuild the grips every five years so they are brought into the shop on a somewhat regular basis) but the sheaves stay outside 24/7. As someone else on the board has stated, bringing a bearing outside and mounting it in the weather is a recipe for failure.
Thanks for the reply.
The "new" materials that we have are maintenance free, so no grease would be required. They are Teflon based. Our primary material is called Gar-Max. It's been around for a while, but has mostly been targeted for the construction industry. It has not been used in ski lifts, primarily because the OEM's continue to push grease.
We have a couple of derivative materials, High Strength Gar-Max and MLG (this is for lighter duty applications).
I've attached our catalog for your reference.
Thanks again.
liftmech, on Feb 7 2006, 03:31 PM, said:
Where to start... On a fixed grip left such as those SLIs you refer to, the majority of bearings are used on the towers inside the sheaves. There can be a few in the motor room for the drive shafts, but outside of that there are only the large bearings in the bullwheels.
On a detachable, however, there are dozens upon dozens of bearings just in the tire banks. Add to that the ones in the grips, and you have the makings of a large bearing order.
I maintain a 1986 Poma detach; I change 50 to 60 sheaves a summer, and about half of those include bearing failures. Occasionally I'll replace the ones on the tire axles, and the support rollers on the grips.
What kind of 'new materials' do you have? In my experience the bearings we use fail because the grease inside does not stay viscous in low temperatures. This results in half the rollers inside being lubricated and the other half rusting in place. In the grips we can fix this by heating the bearings (we rebuild the grips every five years so they are brought into the shop on a somewhat regular basis) but the sheaves stay outside 24/7. As someone else on the board has stated, bringing a bearing outside and mounting it in the weather is a recipe for failure.
On a detachable, however, there are dozens upon dozens of bearings just in the tire banks. Add to that the ones in the grips, and you have the makings of a large bearing order.
I maintain a 1986 Poma detach; I change 50 to 60 sheaves a summer, and about half of those include bearing failures. Occasionally I'll replace the ones on the tire axles, and the support rollers on the grips.
What kind of 'new materials' do you have? In my experience the bearings we use fail because the grease inside does not stay viscous in low temperatures. This results in half the rollers inside being lubricated and the other half rusting in place. In the grips we can fix this by heating the bearings (we rebuild the grips every five years so they are brought into the shop on a somewhat regular basis) but the sheaves stay outside 24/7. As someone else on the board has stated, bringing a bearing outside and mounting it in the weather is a recipe for failure.
Attached File(s)
-
FW_us_050425.pdf (891.29K)
Number of downloads: 41
#5
-
- Industry II
- 149 Posts:
Established User
Posted 07 February 2006 - 01:42 PM
This bearing that you are making looks like it could be used in applications where we presently run "glacier" bushings, you have my interest. We do have some issues with these in certain locations, and perhaps these would work better.I am concerned that years ago we used bushings that incorporated filiments to gain strength, may have been glass, the damage these things could do to a shaft was considerable when the lube broke down. of course a glacier bushing damages the shaft too - once its down to metal on metal
#6
-
- Member
- 7 Posts:
New User
Posted 08 February 2006 - 06:01 AM
I'm not sure, but I can ask.
lastchair_44, on Feb 7 2006, 04:24 PM, said:
Have you, or any of your associates visited Deer Valley? Seems like we had a couple guys up at our shop a year or two ago asking us if we wanted to try a teflon bearing.
#7
-
- Member
- 7 Posts:
New User
Posted 08 February 2006 - 06:14 AM
Our company combined with Glacier a few years ago. These materials do have a glass filled epoxy backing, this is for strength, but the ID of the part has a generous layer of a Teflon based resin (this is called the bearing liner). We have also supplied special parts only made of the resin.
Right now we're trying to get a feel for what problems you have with bearings and where and under what conditions the parts are used.
We think these parts will last longer with little maintenance.
Right now we're trying to get a feel for what problems you have with bearings and where and under what conditions the parts are used.
We think these parts will last longer with little maintenance.
chuckm, on Feb 7 2006, 04:42 PM, said:
This bearing that you are making looks like it could be used in applications where we presently run "glacier" bushings, you have my interest. We do have some issues with these in certain locations, and perhaps these would work better.I am concerned that years ago we used bushings that incorporated filiments to gain strength, may have been glass, the damage these things could do to a shaft was considerable when the lube broke down. of course a glacier bushing damages the shaft too - once its down to metal on metal
#8
-
- Industry II
- 149 Posts:
Established User
Posted 08 February 2006 - 02:13 PM
For us,typically, the main problem with any type of bearing- roller or bushing- is water contamination, the second may be poor lubricant choice. The third may be inappropriate bearing choice for design.Then would be poor mounting practices and contamination. By far tho, most of the failures i have seen are due to H2O. We have experimented with Al compound greases and auto lubers to solve a few issues but wind driven snow and rain will find its way into the tiniest openings and corrosion will begin the destruction of the bearing/shaft. Ice in a roller style bearing is the worst because the rollers then skid and score the races. The glacier syle bearing is usually wrecked by the abrasive action of the oxides on the relatively soft teflon.
Some of the bushing applications we have considered going back to an oilite type bushing because even if it galls and eggs out, it still will not cut the shaft/axle as badly as the steel backing of a glacier bushing.FYI -Most of the applications for these bushings are very low speed and rarely rotate more than 90 degrees so sitting idle contributes to the problems and allows lubrication to seek unloaded portions of the axle (even the teflon needs to be lubed) We have also found that teflon is not an EP lube by itself so in some cases a different bearing is probably better due to high loads.
Some of the bushing applications we have considered going back to an oilite type bushing because even if it galls and eggs out, it still will not cut the shaft/axle as badly as the steel backing of a glacier bushing.FYI -Most of the applications for these bushings are very low speed and rarely rotate more than 90 degrees so sitting idle contributes to the problems and allows lubrication to seek unloaded portions of the axle (even the teflon needs to be lubed) We have also found that teflon is not an EP lube by itself so in some cases a different bearing is probably better due to high loads.
#9
-
- Member
- 7 Posts:
New User
Posted 09 February 2006 - 05:49 AM
Thanks for the reply.
The bearings that I'm referring to are for high loads and very low speeds, they work well in water, and they do not rust. We also have a high strength version that's rated to 60,000 psi.
I think I mentioned that the materials are mostly used in the construction industry under very dirty, gritty conditions and with many temperature variations. They are also used in some marine applications and in valves. We call the bearings, self-lubricating. This is because over time a layer of lubrication will embed onto the shaft. You will see the shaft change color when this happens. Many of our customers have a hard time getting away from the use of grease, but overall it's best for the bearing and for the application. We do recommend a PTFE spray for those who insist on additional lubrication.
The key is to use corrosion resistant shafts with good surface finishes.
Also I want to make it clear that these are not Teflon bearings. Teflon is one of the lubricants we use in the bearing liner, on the ID. Teflon bearings do not have good mechanical properties.
We'd just like to get the product in a ski lift to prove out its performance.
Any takers?
The bearings that I'm referring to are for high loads and very low speeds, they work well in water, and they do not rust. We also have a high strength version that's rated to 60,000 psi.
I think I mentioned that the materials are mostly used in the construction industry under very dirty, gritty conditions and with many temperature variations. They are also used in some marine applications and in valves. We call the bearings, self-lubricating. This is because over time a layer of lubrication will embed onto the shaft. You will see the shaft change color when this happens. Many of our customers have a hard time getting away from the use of grease, but overall it's best for the bearing and for the application. We do recommend a PTFE spray for those who insist on additional lubrication.
The key is to use corrosion resistant shafts with good surface finishes.
Also I want to make it clear that these are not Teflon bearings. Teflon is one of the lubricants we use in the bearing liner, on the ID. Teflon bearings do not have good mechanical properties.
We'd just like to get the product in a ski lift to prove out its performance.
Any takers?
chuckm, on Feb 8 2006, 05:13 PM, said:
For us,typically, the main problem with any type of bearing- roller or bushing- is water contamination, the second may be poor lubricant choice. The third may be inappropriate bearing choice for design.Then would be poor mounting practices and contamination. By far tho, most of the failures i have seen are due to H2O. We have experimented with Al compound greases and auto lubers to solve a few issues but wind driven snow and rain will find its way into the tiniest openings and corrosion will begin the destruction of the bearing/shaft. Ice in a roller style bearing is the worst because the rollers then skid and score the races. The glacier syle bearing is usually wrecked by the abrasive action of the oxides on the relatively soft teflon.
Some of the bushing applications we have considered going back to an oilite type bushing because even if it galls and eggs out, it still will not cut the shaft/axle as badly as the steel backing of a glacier bushing.FYI -Most of the applications for these bushings are very low speed and rarely rotate more than 90 degrees so sitting idle contributes to the problems and allows lubrication to seek unloaded portions of the axle (even the teflon needs to be lubed) We have also found that teflon is not an EP lube by itself so in some cases a different bearing is probably better due to high loads.
Some of the bushing applications we have considered going back to an oilite type bushing because even if it galls and eggs out, it still will not cut the shaft/axle as badly as the steel backing of a glacier bushing.FYI -Most of the applications for these bushings are very low speed and rarely rotate more than 90 degrees so sitting idle contributes to the problems and allows lubrication to seek unloaded portions of the axle (even the teflon needs to be lubed) We have also found that teflon is not an EP lube by itself so in some cases a different bearing is probably better due to high loads.
This post has been edited by TCBey: 09 February 2006 - 05:52 AM
#10
-
- Industry II
- 149 Posts:
Established User
Posted 09 February 2006 - 06:32 AM
TC- We should talk, i can think of at least one spot that we could try this. We are always cautious about changing anything from OEM due to the fact that we are carrying people. So we would need to have some engineering thought go into this unless the dimensions and tolerances are very close to what is exsisting. The comment about the shaft/axle material/finish is right on, some of the mating surfaces on the axles going into glacier bushings are poorly machined and made of mild steel- it will rust while you watch. most of the modern stuff is better tho.
I guess the next question is the big one- who pays for the intial testing?
I guess the next question is the big one- who pays for the intial testing?
#11
-
- Member
- 7 Posts:
New User
Posted 09 February 2006 - 08:16 AM
Regarding who pays - I guess it depends on all that's involved.
We'll of course supply the bearings at no cost. Let me know the sizes you'll need and we'll start from there.
I understand your concern. I am an engineer, so I can compare what the current bearing is rated for and make sure that the new part meets and/or exceed the current specs.
We'll of course supply the bearings at no cost. Let me know the sizes you'll need and we'll start from there.
I understand your concern. I am an engineer, so I can compare what the current bearing is rated for and make sure that the new part meets and/or exceed the current specs.
chuckm, on Feb 9 2006, 09:32 AM, said:
TC- We should talk, i can think of at least one spot that we could try this. We are always cautious about changing anything from OEM due to the fact that we are carrying people. So we would need to have some engineering thought go into this unless the dimensions and tolerances are very close to what is exsisting. The comment about the shaft/axle material/finish is right on, some of the mating surfaces on the axles going into glacier bushings are poorly machined and made of mild steel- it will rust while you watch. most of the modern stuff is better tho.
I guess the next question is the big one- who pays for the intial testing?
I guess the next question is the big one- who pays for the intial testing?
#12
-
- Industry II
- 149 Posts:
Established User
Posted 10 February 2006 - 12:10 PM
The lift that we have a problem with is a Heron-Poma triple chair. The main axle bushings on the larger assemblies on the line towers are eaten on a fairly short time frame. presently the bore that the supporting axle resides in is lined with a glacier style bushing. It may have been sleeved at some point in its history to change from bronze to the GB's (the lift was built in 1974) The problem seems to be that when it is at its highest load the assembly can only rotate a very small amount due to the cable sag on both sides, this concentrates the load to a very small area and then works it, the lube lasts for a short time (and we do have a grease port on the loaded side) but the present bushings will last about 2- 3 seasons and then need to be replaced.
We are quite busy with our lifts all in operation at this time but i will try to get you the specs and sizes. We would be normally scheduling these bushing jobs on our summer work orders so there would be no extra work to install new better bearings IF the sizes could be matched. I would not mind trying to plate or flame the axle surfaces if you would recommend it, while we had them down. Can i get your number? Thanks
We are quite busy with our lifts all in operation at this time but i will try to get you the specs and sizes. We would be normally scheduling these bushing jobs on our summer work orders so there would be no extra work to install new better bearings IF the sizes could be matched. I would not mind trying to plate or flame the axle surfaces if you would recommend it, while we had them down. Can i get your number? Thanks
#13
-
- Industry II
- 27 Posts:
Established User
Posted 13 February 2006 - 07:43 AM
TCBey, on Feb 8 2006, 09:14 AM, said:
Our company combined with Glacier a few years ago. These materials do have a glass filled epoxy backing, this is for strength, but the ID of the part has a generous layer of a Teflon based resin (this is called the bearing liner). We have also supplied special parts only made of the resin.
Right now we're trying to get a feel for what problems you have with bearings and where and under what conditions the parts are used.
We think these parts will last longer with little maintenance.
Right now we're trying to get a feel for what problems you have with bearings and where and under what conditions the parts are used.
We think these parts will last longer with little maintenance.
In regards to the problems with glacier bushings I have several observations for you. First, the type of bushing that has the grease pockets or holes in the coating seem to accelerate wear and corrosion. This may be due to the high loads and limited rotation in the applications that these bearings are used in, namely sheave assemblies and grips. The lubrication of these components is difficult in that the grease can't get to the area where the load is greatest. Even if , for example, the haul rope is lifted off the sheaves there is still enough load to prevent the grease replenishment to the pockets. It just takes the path of least resistance. Maybe if the pockets had channels interconnecting each other lubrication would be more effective. As for the bushings with the non pocket construction I have noted less corrosion and wear as there is no place for the water to become trapped yet I have only used these bushings in grip applications. One other note, Doppelmayr has in the past , placed a spring under the grease fitting contacting the axle on their sheave assemblies to discharge static electricity. In my experience this seems to improve the performance of the bushing in terms of corrosion and wear.
#14
-
- Member
- 7 Posts:
New User
Posted 21 February 2006 - 08:47 AM
Sorry, I didn't get back to you sooner.
You can give me a call at 800-222-0147 x2619.
You can give me a call at 800-222-0147 x2619.
chuckm, on Feb 10 2006, 03:10 PM, said:
The lift that we have a problem with is a Heron-Poma triple chair. The main axle bushings on the larger assemblies on the line towers are eaten on a fairly short time frame. presently the bore that the supporting axle resides in is lined with a glacier style bushing. It may have been sleeved at some point in its history to change from bronze to the GB's (the lift was built in 1974) The problem seems to be that when it is at its highest load the assembly can only rotate a very small amount due to the cable sag on both sides, this concentrates the load to a very small area and then works it, the lube lasts for a short time (and we do have a grease port on the loaded side) but the present bushings will last about 2- 3 seasons and then need to be replaced.
We are quite busy with our lifts all in operation at this time but i will try to get you the specs and sizes. We would be normally scheduling these bushing jobs on our summer work orders so there would be no extra work to install new better bearings IF the sizes could be matched. I would not mind trying to plate or flame the axle surfaces if you would recommend it, while we had them down. Can i get your number? Thanks
We are quite busy with our lifts all in operation at this time but i will try to get you the specs and sizes. We would be normally scheduling these bushing jobs on our summer work orders so there would be no extra work to install new better bearings IF the sizes could be matched. I would not mind trying to plate or flame the axle surfaces if you would recommend it, while we had them down. Can i get your number? Thanks
1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
