13 replies to this topic

[bob]

Is the upper part of the bowl at bachelor really a double black? It doesn't seem particularly steep. I haven't really skied outside of bachelor so I don't know how other terrain compares.

I think a lot of the blacks on bachelor should be blues too, mostly off the northwest lift, but I like it this way because it seems to really scare people away. I've never had a lift line, ever, on that lift which is great because that lift is awesome.

[liftmech]

The short answer is- trail ratings at a particular ski area are unique to that area. I've skied green runs in Washington that are steeper than some blues in Colorado, for example. So when Bachelor assigns a double diamond to the Cirque, it is a double diamond compared to other runs on that mountain only.

[SkiBachelor]

If you read some of the reviews on Skitown.com about Mt. Bahelor, some people think that Mt. Bachelor's trail system is too difficult for them and think the blues should be blacks. I recently skied Big White and all the blues there were green runs at Mt. Bachelor.

Willamette Pass recently just changed it trail raiting. Basically it bumped every run up one trail raiting, so a green is now a blue and a blue is now a black and a black is now a double black. However, the beginner runs are still green. The downside to this is that there is now less grooming on a lot of the runs.

[bob]

SkiBachelor, on Jan 10 2006, 09:11 AM, said:

If you read some of the reviews on Skitown.com about Mt. Bahelor, some people think that Mt. Bachelor's trail system is too difficult for them and think the blues should be blacks. I recently skied Big White and all the blues there were green runs at Mt. Bachelor.

Willamette Pass recently just changed it trail raiting. Basically it bumped every run up one trail raiting, so a green is now a blue and a blue is now a black and a black is now a double black. However, the beginner runs are still green. The downside to this is that there is now less grooming on a lot of the runs.

What! that is nuts. Well, that is good news I guess. The reason I asked is I will be skiing a lot in colorado (going to school there) and didn't want to get in over my head. I was a little worried about going down one of their double blacks and doing one of those carthweels you see in ski movies the whole way down.

liftmech, I know but the whole point of my question is to compare it to other mountains, not other terrain on bachelor.

[liftmech]

I misread your question, then. In my opinion the Cirque is comparable to an upper-level black diamond at most areas. It's not quite double diamond in my book except for the Pinnacles section (which is way fun to ski).

Where in CO are you going to school, if I might ask?

[bob]

liftmech, on Jan 11 2006, 05:20 AM, said:

I misread your question, then. In my opinion the Cirque is comparable to an upper-level black diamond at most areas. It's not quite double diamond in my book except for the Pinnacles section (which is way fun to ski).

Where in CO are you going to school, if I might ask?

Boulder, and agreed, the pinnacles rock. I don't usually make the hike to the top though, just cut into the side, which, I know is definitely barely a black. But the snow can be awesome there.

I have the 5 mountain pass, the one with vail, keystone, breck, beaver creek, and I think A-basin on it. So far I've only been to keystone and breck.

This post has been edited by bob: 11 January 2006 - 04:47 PM

[liftmech]

Try A-Basin for good steep stuff, especially the Palavicini lift. Those runs would be double diamonds at virtually any resort.

[Vancouver_WA_Skier]

bob, on Jan 10 2006, 01:46 AM, said:

Is the upper part of the bowl at bachelor really a double black? It doesn't seem particularly steep. I haven't really skied outside of bachelor so I don't know how other terrain compares.

I think a lot of the blacks on bachelor should be blues too, mostly off the northwest lift, but I like it this way because it seems to really scare people away. I've never had a lift line, ever, on that lift which is great because that lift is awesome.

I've done about 85% of my skiing at Mt. Hood Meadows, 10% at Timberline and 5% at Bachelor. I was at Meadows this past Sunday (loooooong lift lines) and will be heading to Bachelor this weekend.

I've skiied the upper part of the bowl a while ago and I don't recall it being a double-black in my book. Personally, I think that the bowls at Meadows to the left of the Blue chair are harder, but that's just me. They're harder because the moguls on them get pretty big over the season and you've got to be able to make those turns in time!

I'm looking forward to skiing NW Express. Any recommendations on what to hit on the mountain? I tend to like steep groomed runs, or to be more precise, steep runs that don't have big (more than about a foot high moguls).

Thanks! Meadows is up to 15 feet now!

[yetigonecrazy]

its definetly unique to resort. Here at Crested Butte, people who visit a lot of ski areas other than our home (me included) often say everything is a step up from other resorts. i try to tell people its like this: our greens are still easy, but a good number of our blues would be blacks at other mountains, and most of our blacks would be double blacks elsewhere. Our double diamonds are the terrain that other mountains block off with lots of ropes and warning signs. Here, theres a tiny 5'' x 7'' sign that says "Warning: Cliff Area", and thats it. you dont know if its a 5 foot cliff with an easy exit or a 60 footer with a sketchy landing.
i think the green/blue/black/double black system is a good loose system to follow. it still gets the message across. its not like river ratings, where its extremely vague and general, but more letting you know whats "probably" going to be seen.

[skier2]

Yes... if you're not sure that ski areas indeed do have different ratings, then one very obvious difference is that between a black diamond at Timberline and a black diamond at Mt. Hood Meadows. A green at Meadows is like a black at Timberline! And they're both on the same mountain. BTW, does anybody know if Cooper Spur still has skiing, and if so, a website?

[SkiBachelor]

Cooper Spur's website URL below.

http://www.cooperspur.com/

[Bill]

Yeah they do, Meadows built a fixed grip there and Cameron and I tried to get pics but the gate was closed and it was getting late.

[SkiBachelor]

You know Bill, we should have jumped the gate and made the short walk up there because it was the last chairlift that Riblet made. However, we can always go and do another Mt. Hood hike in the future or something. Maybe do it in July so we can get some skiing in on the Palmer snow field.

[ssstturns]

Marketing folk at most ski areas look at the mix of runs at their ski areas and then divide up the green, blue, and black symbols to trails so resulting percentages appeal most to those they try and market to. In other words if they have too much advanced terrain and not enough intermediate, they will change the least advanced runs that are not too steep and proclaim they must be a blue. Or if a resort has as is more common, too many blues and not enough blacks, they'll will find a spot somewhere on the trail however brief that is a bit steep and thus proclaim the trail a black. These days with an emphasis on steeper terrain, resorts are at pains to make some ordinary blacks into double blacks. The whole green/blue/black system is old in the ski resort industry and not likely to ever change because marketing people in any industry rarely have much interest in being too honest if it gets in the way of sales. They want a very simple simple rating system they can manipulate that even a moron or drunk will understand.

Runs that are blacks are often so for just a brief distance with the rest easily handled by intermediates. But because the trail marking systems assign a rating to the whole length of a run, there little way to tell whether a black is so the whole way like Gunbarrel at Heavenly Valley or just for a short pitch over a long distance like so many blacks one finds. In other words a run is rated by the most difficult section that cannot be avoided by continuing down the route. Today it would be easy for a resort to mark runs more meaningfully. At the same time resorts could get rid of those painted resort trail maps I dislike and use something more photo based, to scale, and graphically modern.

Incremental different colors could be placed on named runs depending on the broad slope gradients. So for instance a run that started out a steep 60% grade might be colored red for the section that steep or steeper, then orange where it was 60% to 45% grade, yellow where 45% to 33% grade, blue where 33% to 20%, and green where less than 20% grade. Evaluating runs to do this would be a short task of applying simple trigonometry on a topo map and field checking a little bit later with an inclonometer. Given the advanced state of graphics these days availabe to anyone, it is surprising the ski industry still clings to their old ways. Or maybe it isn't since the ski industry is nauseatingly slow when it comes to being creative and innovative.

...David

This post has been edited by ssstturns: 23 January 2006 - 06:49 PM