42 replies to this topic

[SkiTimby]

Long time lurker, infrequent poster here...

I just returned from a week of Utah skiing (a necessary trip this winter since the Pacific NW season was so miserable).

I returned to The Canyons for the first time since 1999... and I was surprised about a couple things:

1) Why no more Raptor lift? I understand that the actual lift was relocated and is now the Dreamscape quad, but the location of the Raptor lift made sense and several of the runs in that area are nice. It was irritating having to ski all the way back to the long/slow Golden Eagle chair to ski those runs. The decision to move Raptor is especially questionable considering ASC installed that lift when they took over... only to yank it out shortly after. The Red Hawk --> Raptor sequence was a good alternative to the Gondola out of the base to get on the mountain. Why the change?

2) The Red Hawk quad was moved south, lengthened, and renamed Sunrise... and it's now a double chair. And it never ran during my time there. What was the point? Also surprising is that most of the on-mountain signs have the Sunrise lift labeled as a quad. Interesting how the signs reflected the name change (from Red Hawk to Sunrise), but not the carrier capacity change (from quad to double). Any thoughts?

Overall... it was a good trip. I have some new favorite cruisers... Cloud 9 off Tombstone and Applande of Super Condor were outstanding. They also groomed Arrowhead off Lookout Peak one day... a fantastic run, but too bad Raptor wasn't there anymore to encourage me to do some laps on that run.

[SkiBachelor]

I think the reason why the Raptor lift was removed was because ASC didn't have the funds to install a new lift over in the Dreamscape area, plus ASC wanted the Canyons to be finished with its expansion before the 2002 olympics.

Red Hawk was most likely relocated because its new alignment accesses more terrain, but it's odd that it's a double now. When I was at the Canyons this past summer, the Surnise lift was a quad so that is weird.

BTW, both the Raptor and Red Hawk lifts were installed by the previous owner before ASC took ownership of the ski area I believe.

[Outback]

Red Hawk still remains a quad.

We relocated it to its present location to satisfy a real estate promise made years ago to investors for "ski-in, ski-out".

Red Hawk History:
Assisted with the original install.
Shortened it a year later.
Relocated it two summers ago.

[Outback]

Raptor was originally Saddleback FQ...now Saddleback Express DQ.
New bottom alignment swung south from original location, same top.
We relocated Saddleback to Raptor for ASC ownership the first year.
Couple years later Raptor was relocated to present Peak 5 location near the bottom of 9990 (another Outback install).
They had planned to replace the old double that goes to the Lookout top with a detach (Golden Eagle) but it never happened.
Raptor was installed in the draw the first year of ASC ownership because they had planned on building 75 homes in there. That never happened so out she comes!

[floridaskier]

That plan would have worked out a lot better if they replaced Golden Eagle with a high speed quad. Now they hardly ever open it and don't seem to care at all about that whole part of the mountain, which is probably the best part

So Wolf Mountain installed the Saddleback FGQ? It's always been a HS while it's been The Canyons. Did they install the Snow Canyon (randomly renamed 'Sun Peaks Express' from a real-estate development not too far away) HSQ too, or was that a Wolf Mountain one too? It seems funny that they would have installed lifts from three different companies in the same year (CTEC, Poma, Doppelmayr). I'd love to see a 1996-97 trail map from Wolf Mountain. The way I understood it was that Wolf Mountain had the the Golden Eagle and Condor doubles, both Riblets, and something in the Snow Canyon line, which had to be there if they had the Saddleback area open


This older Wolf Mountain map shows the Condor double, Golden Eagle double, Snow Canyon whatever, a lift from the bottom of Condor to the top of Golden Eagle (which would be really useful now), a lift from the bottom of Golden Eagle to somewhere under the current gondola, and two shorter lifts at the bottom, one of which might be Red Hawk. Saddleback peak is shown on the map, which could have indicated a future expansion. I wish they had left all of these in, they were laid out much better than what's over there now on the part of the mountain that they don't seem to care about at all, which pretty well sucks

[Powdr]

Man, that mountain has been so messed up, I wonder how they ever stayed in business. The old Park West had an interesting layout to begin with. You had to either hike or take a short lift just to get out of the base area. The SE exposure just killed the place come March, where there were times that you were skiing on mud. For all its shortcomings, it was still a funky, fun place to ski, kinda like Aspen Highlands was to the Aspen area resorts. Then it became Wolf Mountain, and the owners finally understood that ski season weren't getting any longer or colder, and they had a plan to expand into the Saddleback area and beyond, with its much more northerly exposures. Also, it was the only PC resort that allowed snowboards, so it had a pretty cool vibe. Always worth a day of skiing/riding if you were in the area. Then ASC took over and the decisions made were even more questionable. They bought all the land, including where the Colony now sits. How they made the decision to re-construct the SE exposure base area, when they were looking at the N exposure areas of the Colony baffles me to this day. Drive by the area on any early or late season day and you find that the Colony has ample depths of snow, while the barren, ugly base area is devoid of snow. Duh! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

[SkiTimby]

Outback, on Mar 30 2005, 10:21 AM, said:

Red Hawk still remains a quad.

We relocated it to its present location to satisfy a real estate promise made years ago to investors for "ski-in, ski-out".

Red Hawk History:
Assisted with the original install.
Shortened it a year later.
Relocated it two summers ago.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can tell you with 100% certainty that the Sunrise (former Red Hawk) lift is now a double chair. I saw it with my own (surprised) eyes just 2 weeks ago. It's even labeled as a double chair on the trail map now... and at TheCanyons.com. Judging by the number of on-mountain signs that still had the lift labeled as a quad, I speculate that the lift was indeed a quad even after it was relocated. Some time later (this year?), and for some reason... the quad carriers were seemingly replaced with doubles. I have NO idea why...

[floridaskier]

Sunrise is most definetly a double chair now. I saw it a few weeks ago, surprised, too. It starts right next to the drop-off area next to the Sundial lodge (my dad hates the Cabriolet, so we take the shuttle bus when I can't convince him to let me ride the Cabriolet). I have only ridden this lift once, when it was the parking lot lift in the early days at The Canyons, and never again, because it doesn't serve anything and is hardly ever open. There's no obvious way to get to it either

The Canyons lives for name changes - this year the Snow Canyon Express became Sun Peaks Express (with the same blatantly obvious scraped off 'Snow Canyon' name on the bottom, as it appears they have never once repainted this lift), Lookout became Short Cut, and Red Hawk became Sunrise.

[Tin Woodsman]

Ever since I skied there the first year ASC owned them, I've lobbied for a lift from the Snow Canyon base to the top of Lookout. That would be a fantastic expert terrain pod facing due north. With a deck on the south side of the Snow Canyon lodge, you'd have a great viewing area for the bump lines that would form under that lift. What a waste - that area is run by idiots. You can't even do laps on the Lookout area when Golden Eagle isn't running - i.e. never.

[floridaskier]

One thing that pisses me off is that when Golden Eagle lift isn't running (which covers most of the year) is that you can't get out of Super Condor without going to the rope tow down there (which may or may not be open, and there's no notice whether it is or not) or hike back out to the gondola, ride that back up, and take Lookout. They should have extended Snow Canyon all the way down to the bottom of Super Condor and built the lodge down there (remember Buffalo Bob's?)
What gets me is that that there used to be a lift exactly there (Condor to Lookout) at Wolf Mountain. That whole section of the mountain is basically off-limits when Golden Eagle is not running - or, in other words, is off limits every day

[SkiBachelor]

Does ASC also close down Lookout/Short Cut when the Golden Eagle lift is closed?

[floridaskier]

No, Lookout is always open when I'm there. Probably because there's a restaurant at the top, a nicer sit-down one.
At Christmas, it didn't look like the ramp was even built for Golden Eagle even though signs said that it was open

[boardski]

When I skied Park West in 1990, they had a lift called "Tomahawk" that ran fairly close to where the Golden Eagle lift goes. The Tomahawk, in addition to most of the other lifts they had were all center-pole doubles and I think Tomahawk might have been an old CTEC double or another one called "Arrowhead" may have been. Does anyone know if Golden Eagle was retrofitted from one of the old Park West lifts or if it came from another area? and if so, which one?

[floridaskier]

I think it's an original installation from 1965. Do you remember what the Golden Eagle or Condor or any other lifts there were named in the Park West or Wolf Mountain days?

[boardski]

I am positive that the chairs are not the originals from the tomahawk since they difinately had the center bar. The reason I remember the Tomakawk so well is that it ran like one. The chairs were spaced further apart than the average Fixed girip lift and the lift ran almost as fast as an older HSQ (such as Summit Express at MJ). I also think the Tomahawk may have run counter-clockwise whereas the Golden Eagle runs Clockwise. I also don't rembemer the high bullwheel at the bottom but I do remember the return station being further back than the loading terminal. As far as other lifts at Park West: There were two beginner lifts. one was a Riblet CPD (I have forgotten the name) and an SLI double called "Tumbleweed" which hardly ever ran. Arrowhead was the CTEC CPD which ran just about the same line as the current gondola and had a mid-point at the top of the first ridge. It went about 1/2 the length of the current gondola. "Slaughterhouse" was a Hall CPD which ran about the same line as Raptor did. It had a run under it with the same name that had near-waist deep powder on it when I skied it. "Iron Horse" was an excruciatingly long Riblet CPD which ran the exact same line as Super Condor and "Short Swing" was a fairly short Riblet double which began where the current Snow Canyon/Sun Peak chair is and terminated close to the top of the current Lookout/ Short Cut chair. Unfortunately, I do not have a way of scanning a map of PArk West but it is very similar to that of Wolf Mountain probably with different lift names. Oh and the other thing, I paid $15 for my lift ticket that day back in '90. Those were the days!

[floridaskier]

The Riblet that ran the Super Condor line was there for the first year of The Canyons too, then they replaced it with the HSQ. That sounds like a much better setup that actually worked for that part of the mountain, better than what they have now

[boardski]

A major problem I noticed when I first skied The Canyons (other than tickets being up to $60's instead of $15) was that there is no alternative way out of the base area if the gondola has to shut down for wind (which was the case that day) or other reasons. Despite the need to run the gondola extremely slow creating a 45 min wait for the gondola, they still did not run Golden Eagle. It seems a good solution would be to build a HSQ starting where the Red HAwk used to (before it was moved senselessly to where it is now) and make it run high enough to reach Golden Eagle which should also be changed to a HSQ. Or the HSQ starting in the Red HAwk area could run high enough to catch Sun Peak/ Snow Canyon and Super Condor since these lifts drop skiers off high enough to access the top of the gondola. I also agree with another post that there needs to be a way to reach PEak 5 and 9990 without riding Tombstone. I have also noticed that Tombstone closes at 3:30p.m. each day, same time as Peak 5, Day Break, and Dreamscape. It does not appear that there is any way out for anyone who arrives at Tombstone after 3:30. Does anyone know what they do?? I bet there have been some angry skiers who miss the last ride up Tombstone.

[Outback]

SkiTimby, on Mar 31 2005, 05:19 PM, said:

I can tell you with 100% certainty that the Sunrise (former Red Hawk) lift is now a double chair.  I saw it with my own (surprised) eyes just 2 weeks ago.  It's even labeled as a double chair on the trail map now... and at TheCanyons.com.  Judging by the number of on-mountain signs that still had the lift labeled as a quad, I speculate that the lift was indeed a quad even after it was relocated.  Some time later (this year?), and for some reason... the quad carriers were seemingly replaced with doubles.  I have NO idea why...
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It happened after I left.
Even checked the contract and load test procedure documents.
FGQ

[floridaskier]

I don't know what happened or why, but Red Hawk is definetly a double now. I wish I'd gotten a picture, but I didn't have the camera that day.

Either way, there's still no other way out of the base area if the gondola takes a crap. Sunrise isn't anywhere near the gondola. The new line sucks, ends around the same spot but is impossible to get to from Doc's Run without taking your skis off and walking across the chunks of ice and dirt that they don't keep the cover up on. The Sunrise lift was not run at all when I was there. When they moved it, they should have put it closer to the gondola, not farther away. I can't think of why they moved it at all, much less than moving it to where it is now, which is just stupid

The only time I've been over on that part of the mountain late in the day, they rope off Dreamscape, Day Break, and Peak 5 before 3:30 and close Tombstone afterwards, so that's not really a problem, but that would drive people away if they knew that.

Maybe a good solution to the Red Hawk/Sunrise/Gondola/Golden Eagle/windy day problem would be to make Golden Eagle a HSQ and have something, maybe a pulse gondola, to take people from the gondola base to the Golden Eagle base

[SkiBachelor]

It's not really that far of a walk from the Flight of the Cabins gondola to the Golden Eagle lift. All that ASC would have to do is expand the village towards the Golden Eagle a little more and then you can ski down. Even though the walk might seem like a long ways from the Cabriolet to the Flight of the Canyons gondola, it's not as bad as Whistler.