16 replies to this topic

[KZ]

My oh my I cry at what I found today. Not really but its crappy <_<

LIFTS - Mountain Improvement Plan

Replacement of the Echo Chair lift, the new “Village Express”, with a high speed detachable quad, completed December 2004.
Replacement of the Pioneer lift with a Chondola lift, a lift having both cabins and chairs providing foot and skier access to the Schaffer’s Camp restaurant site and associated ski terrain.
Installation of a New real estate lift serving the Summit and Overlook subdivisions
Installation of the New J1 lift providing out of base access and with a new “ski to” trail the lift would provide access to the up mountain area for Ski Trail Condominium owners
New G3 beginner lift serving an expanded beginner area at mid mountain.
A new children’s teaching area with Magic Carpets, to the west of Village Run.
Replacement of the surface lift with a realigned chairlift for improved access to Lookout Mountain.

TRAILS - Mountain Improvement Plan

A new trail leading from the top of the new G2 lift serving a more direct route to the Backside lift. Guests seeking the Backside skiing will ride 2 lifts, Gondola and G2, versus the current experience of riding 3 lifts, Gondola, Arrow and Vista.
Under existing conditions guests seeking access to Christmas Tree, Sodergrens and The Gully trails either traverse from the top of Pioneer or ride two lifts, Arrow and Comstock, to round trip and enjoy these trails. With the advent of the new G2 lift these popular intermediate runs will be directly accessible for round trip skiing on G2.
With the new installation of the G3 beginner lift additional and enhanced beginner terrain will be provided.
Pinball and the Straits on the Vista chair will be widened and snowmade to provide an improved terrain park location.
The Woods Run will be snowmade and widened to provide an alternative access back to the Village.
Terrain off West Ridge will be improved and widened to relieve some of the pressure on the popular West Ridge trail.

Ski Trails Map


New “ski to” trail connecting the existing Home Run trail to the Ski Trail condominium units.
New “ski back tunnel” connecting Ski Trail Condominiums and the Home Run trail to the village.
New “ski from” trail serving lift access to the future J1 lift from the upper Ski Trail condominium units.
New pedestrian sidewalk connecting the Ski Trail condominiums to the new village.

Bridge/Tunnel Illustration

An artists rendering of the connection from the Home Run ski trail to the village center, which is also the connection that the upper Ski Trail condominium owners would use to access the village


Mountain Improvement Map (.pdf)
Ski Trails Map (.pdf)

All info off of Northstars website.

I can't believe this.

[Kicking Horse]

what's so bad?????

[KZ]

So I am going to fume on this a little.

Basically what has happened is that northstar is trying to squeeze too many people on their mountain and get the right capacity. So let me give a brief history as to what has happened.

Northstar opened in the early 70s with 2 lifts out of the base village, 3 lifts up from mid-mountain plus a beginner lift and one lift to the summit. Now back then all the lifts were doubles or triples so lift rides were long but the runs relatively uncrowded. So they did the obvious thing, try to ease lift lines and get more people on the mountain. So in the late 70s a triple was added to access the eastern portion of the summit, but the trouble is this lift doesn’t go down to the bottom of the other summit lift so the only way you could get to it was by taking the first summit lift or another double. Then northstar added the backside with a triple I believe for access. It was an instant hit but people still needed to ride that main summit lift to the top. In the mid 80s they upgraded one of the base lifts to a gondola to get more people out of the village quicker. This seems good but it clogged up vista, arrow and pioneer. This got bad but Comstock (the summit lift) was worse because everyone one wanted to get to the top or the backside. Keep in mind 3 lifts feed this one lift. So in the late 80s it was upgraded to a detachable quad. Horary no more issues there. But mid mountain was still a joke. So in the early 90 (92-93) vista and arrow were made express quads. Yay, no mid mountain issues, but oh no, Comstock is jammed. In this time backside was also made express. Now we come to near present day. Mid-mountain is packed with people because all runs feed it, so vista and arrow are overloaded on weekends. Pioneer is almost unused right now. Comstock is even worse because it is the only real way to the top. Backside is ok but it is getting more and more loaded every season. So this summer Echo (that other base lift) was upgraded to an express quad. Great, shorter gondola lines but oh no, mid-mountain can’t take it any more. The solution, replace Pioneer and up the capacity. Good idea? No! What about comstock, its going to be overloaded. Their solution, cut a new trail to the backside so that will just get even more crowded.

So as you can see this is a messy situation. Right now the runs are crowded and the lifts packed with lines. The issue is making both perfect but I don’t think it can be done. The mountain isn’t big enough to handle the crowds and once one lift is upgraded to a 6-pack so will another and another and this dreadful cycle will continue. So the real solution is a good expansion. Sure they added lookout a few years back but no one goes there. It does nothing to the main mountain crowds. So they need to go and add some good terrain that will really take the burden off the main 3 lifts to the summit. Maybe another base area but with TRPA the chances of anything like that are slim. And remember, the will upgrade the main lifts eventually so slope congestion will be out of this world. Big springs is getting old, so with the village express and that other new lift (probably a hsq) its going to be about 5000-6000 people an hour from the base with about the same at mid mountain. Sounds good but remember there are already all those people up from the base earlier in the day. So thats a lot of people and not even close to enough capicity. So what do they do? Good question, but I know I’ll stay away.

Im sure the map looks fun and all but right now its not. They have long runs and great parks and all that but who wants to wait 20-30 minutes between every run. It totally takes out the fun. Also look at the woods, the trail bottom right back to the village; probably the best on the mountain. Looks how wide they want it. Almost 3 times wider. :(

[CAski]

The TRPA does not affect Northstar. It is out of the basin. There are good things and bad things about the plan. I will get to those later.

[CAski]

On further reflection, I mostly agree with you.

However, it could be worse though...

I read previously that the cross country trails by Big Springs was going to be a housing development and a hotel.

[KZ]

To elaborate the capicity issue.

Current Capicity for village(assuming big springs=2000 pph): 4400 pph
Proposed Cap.: 7400 pph (assuming 3rd lift is express 6 with 3000 pph)

Current Cap. Mid Mountain: 7000 pph (assuming Pioneer is 1400)
Proposed Cap. Mid Mountain: 8000 pph (comaring 6/8 chondola cap.=2400)

Summit Cap. Including Rendezvouz: 4400pph, 2800 to the true summit
Proposed Cap: No change

Backside Cap.: 2500pph
Proposed cap: no change but more traffic from new chondola and trail.

So look at the numbers. Base lifts will have no lines but with 7400 an hour up to mid mountain its going to be an even worse zoo. The chondola only adds 1000 people an hour and with an extra 3000 coming up that is not enough. Also only 2800 to the summit (proposed 8000 feeding that 2800) that is not a pretty number. Now this is worst case so out of a potential 8000 an hour from mid mountain about 3500-4000 will want to go up to the top. So that is still 700-1200 more people to the lift in an hour then it can handle.

[CAski]

Maybe I spoke too soon.

This, I believe, is the project occuring at the present cross country trails at mid-mountain. This is what will destroy Northstar.

Placer County will consider approval Wednesday, of plans for 1,450 condominium and townhome units and a 255-room lodge at Northstar-at-Tahoe that represents the next piece of the resort’s extensive expansion.
The Northstar Highlands, proposed on 345 acres south of the resort’s village, also includes an environmental review for a 96-unit workforce housing project that will house employees of the Northstar Village and the first phase of the Highlands project. That project, named Sawmill Heights, was approved in 2001, but has been held up by a lawsuit by Northstar homeowners challenging the proposal because it did not undergo the highest level of environmental review.
Apart from Sawmill Heights, developer East West Partners plans to build 174 more affordable housing units to satisfy the housing demand created by the latter phases of the Highlands project, according to the Highlands draft environmental impact report. However, no formal plans for these units have been created, according to the project draft environmental impact report.
By addressing the employee housing issues in the project proposal, the developers will avoid appeals by the Town of Truckee that delayed the approval of the Siller Ranch project in the Martis Valley. Truckee planning officials have reviewed the project and are satisfied with the employee housing included in the proposal.
With the Highlands project come plans for significant changes to how the resort will operate. A second access off of Highway 267 will be created to service the project and a 1,800-space parking lot off of the lower end of Northstar Drive would be added to decrease day-skier traffic on the full length of the road. A traffic light will also be added to the intersection of Northstar Drive and Highway 267 by next summer.
All of the condos and townhomes, which will be phased in over the next 15 to 20 years, will be ski-in, ski-out residences, meshing with developer East West Partners’ and ski resort owner Booth Creek’s overall vision of the ski area as a “destination resort,” said Project Manager Aaron Revere.
In conjunction with the shops and restaurants going up at the new Northstar Village, the Highlands project will attract visitors to stay at the resort longer than the traditional weekend ski trip, said Revere.
The village, which also has a residential component, will serve as the commercial and retail hub of the destination resort, while the Highlands will provide the residential side of the equation, but also include a restaurant, spa and skier services.
“This helps to level out the seasonal aspect (of the resort),” said Revere. “It is a better economic model on a variety of levels.”

Employee Housing Ordinance
Placer County’s Planning Commission will be reviewing the county’s employee housing ordinance, which applies to new development in the Sierra Nevada portion of Placer County.
The ordinance requires that large new development project provide housing for half of the employees that they will attract. The commission will be recommending action to the Board of Supervisors, which is the final review authority on the ordinance.

Ski in, ski out
The ski-in, ski-out nature of the residences will also help to reduce car traffic at Northstar and encourage visitors to walk, ski or use public transit to around the resort, said Revere.
The first phase of the Highlands project would total 250 units, said Revere, and, because of the almost 4 miles of road needing to be built, could take five to seven years to complete.
The project, largely because of its enormous size, has attracted its number of critics.
“The plans do not seem consistent with the character of Northstar as we know it,” wrote Rod and Jonnie Jacobs, part-time residents of Northstar, in their comments on the environmental document. “When these plans are added to the plans for the village and condominiums already proposed, they represent a massive buildout which is too large for Northstar and the Martis Valley.”
But Sierra Watch, the environmental group that has been an outspoken critic of Martis Valley development, concedes that the Highlands is not on a section of land that is of the high biological value.
According to Revere, that, along with the clustered nature of the project, minimize the Highlands environmental impact.
“It is not like this is a virgin area,” said Revere of the project location. “It is a developed area.”

From the Sierra Sun.

[KZ]

"a destination resort", thats funny. They will never be big enough of have the same tahoe snow and terrain. Its boring.

[CAski]

East-West Partners is treating the place as though it were Beaver Creek or Vail, when it obviously is not.

[KZ]

Quote

NEW LIFTS ACCESS NEW TERRAIN
As the resort’s village continues to expand its lodging and amenities, Northstar™ Resort plans to grow the mountain proportionately to support the new Village at Northstar™. Mountain improvements already complete include the opening of Lookout Mountain and the addition of the $4 million Village Express, which opened in the 2004-05 season.

This summer, Northstar Resort is investing $10.5 million in the next phase of mountain improvements which will result in the completion of two new Doppelmayr lifts for the 2006/07 winter season. The planned lifts include a high-speed six-pack which will dramatically improve access to Lookout Mountain and the Backside. The new lift, whose base is situated directly across from the mid-mountain Day Lodge, will whisk riders up nearly 1,050 vertical feet in just five minutes. The new six-pack will access 13 total trails and 137 acres of total terrain, including 60 acres of new intermediate terrain. Included in this terrain is a new mile-long run to connect guests directly from the top of the six-pack to the Backside.

The second lift is a European-style surface lift to replace Salmon Tow, which transported guests over to the resort’s popular advanced terrain on Lookout Mountain. The new lift will be friendly to both skiers and snowboarders. The lift will be easily accessible from the top of the new six-pack lift, providing convenient access to Lookout Mountain.

“These two lifts will significantly improve uphill capacity and circulation on the mountain,” said Tim Silva, Northstar Resort’s general manager. “Previously, guests were required to take two lifts to get from mid-mountain to the Backside. Now, they can easily access this popular terrain with one chair ride, cutting their ride time nearly in half.

Northstar Resort’s overall mountain improvement plan calls for the addition and/or replacement of six lifts in total.

While the new lift will improve access to the backside, now the backside express will be even more crowded as people try to escape the mid-mountain crowds. Hopefully the new surface lift will improve the popularity of Lookout mountain because if not the rest of the mountain is going to be pretty scary. I wonder if there are any more expansion plans for lookout because simply widening the trails off of pioneer isn't going to cure the new crowds.

Note the new alignment for the surface lift:
2006 Upgrades (.pdf)
Compared to: Mountain Improvement Map (.pdf)

Traffic on the face and boondocks (2 of the better Northstar runs) will be very light besides those returning from lookout. Also the Home Run to the parking lot is going to be pretty out of the way untill the triple is installed.

On a positive note traffic on Comstock and Arrow will be greatly reduced meaning beginners and more advanced skiers/riders will have a more open area to learn. I am curious as to what they will rename pioneer in its new line/chair configuration.

[heavenly_romer]

The crappy part of this whole thing is that they didn't even open the mountain bike park this summer. I was up in Graeagle for the 4th of July, and we were about to go, but when we called, they told us that because there is so much construction going on, they didn't even bother to open up this year.

[KZ]

On their site they said it is to "make it better for the future years."

Luckily I have some awesome bike trails right around me but I bet northstar has some fun stuff. Mammoth's was pretty fun but I think Northstar has more.

I still say that they need to do some expansion before they are done with it all. They were a crowded place and more lodging, condos and general interest and only a few new lifts may scatter people a little more but not enough. Maybe I'll go back in a few years. Untill then I am sticking with Sugar Bowl, Rose and Alpine.

[Peter]

The "village" is open! You can go "shopping" at the 5 stores they have or play golf.

[SkiBachelor]

There were five stores open when I was there last year when the Village was in the process of being built. A mountain bike store, clothing store, ski shop, a spa and information.

[KZ]

Well with the new ritz it will be all better.

[CAski]

What a shame. So much for my favorite run at Northstar, The Gulley, soon to be some wide avenue. That area really doesn't merit a six-pack. Ho well, I found that Mount Rose has better runs of those type anyway. The new Ritz and Highlands are going to make the place look like some sort of town instead of a ski area. At some point they are supposed to expand off onto Sawtooth ridge and to the left of Vista, aren't they? At least perhaps a long time from now.

I am interested in seeing how many people this attracts. I mean, the numbers of people into snowsports really isn't growing. So is this going to merely take people away from the better resorts like Squaw or what?

Finally, their village isn't as nice as Squaw's, but the ice skating rink is fantastic.

[Peter]

Even though the number of skiers and riders isn't changing, they are going skiing and riding more often. This is why the national skier vsits record keeps being broken year after year.