http://m.sunjournal....-one-it/1958508
-no injuries as lift was not in use during summer.
-30 years after installation the top bull wheel support fails?
-last load test completed in 2015
- carpet added in 2014
Any thoughts on what could cause this? Recent work?
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Sunday river spruce peak borvig triple incident- July 2016
Started by slider729, Jul 13 2016 05:42 AM
32 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 13 July 2016 - 06:00 AM
ive been hearing rain over on sugarloaf today
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#3
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Posted 13 July 2016 - 03:22 PM
4 straight days of an inch plus of rain per day ... you have to wonder if ground subsidence could be a cause.
It wouldn't take much of a slide for the foundation to lose integrity, and the weight of the rope would easily pull it right over.
It wouldn't take much of a slide for the foundation to lose integrity, and the weight of the rope would easily pull it right over.
This post has been edited by _litz: 13 July 2016 - 03:23 PM
#5
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Posted 13 July 2016 - 07:30 PM
I'm seriously still thinking it's coincidence. The three major incidents recently (The derailment on a double, terminal failure on a triple, and rollback on the quad) weren't related to a particular part of the lift to my understanding, however with yan high speed quads the same issue was happening ; the grips (although their detachables did have some other poor designs imo)
Woo, those pictures depict something else entirely. Very fortunate that it didn't happen with people on it during regular operation, but I am willing to bet the rain had something to do with it. What I do want to know is how much different a lot of rain is compared to a few feet of melting snow coupled with potential rain in the spring time on the lift though.
honestly those pictures remind me of when I first tried making a model ski lift
Anyways, as for repair vs. replacement, I'd go for repair as it doesn't make too much sense upgrade wise (they spent a bunch of $ on the bottom terminal with the carpet and I hear a new motor) and even if the top is very damaged, I'd imagine someone could construct a working return. As for capacity adjustment/high speed potential, I would go up the spruce chair more if it was high speed because it's pretty slow and long, and it really doesn't need extra capacity for 3 actual runs it serves (or something like that) and then it also serves an access route to the western peaks that is also accessible via north peak, and aurora if you're using it to go to the Jordan bowl / Oz area
Woo, those pictures depict something else entirely. Very fortunate that it didn't happen with people on it during regular operation, but I am willing to bet the rain had something to do with it. What I do want to know is how much different a lot of rain is compared to a few feet of melting snow coupled with potential rain in the spring time on the lift though.
honestly those pictures remind me of when I first tried making a model ski lift
Anyways, as for repair vs. replacement, I'd go for repair as it doesn't make too much sense upgrade wise (they spent a bunch of $ on the bottom terminal with the carpet and I hear a new motor) and even if the top is very damaged, I'd imagine someone could construct a working return. As for capacity adjustment/high speed potential, I would go up the spruce chair more if it was high speed because it's pretty slow and long, and it really doesn't need extra capacity for 3 actual runs it serves (or something like that) and then it also serves an access route to the western peaks that is also accessible via north peak, and aurora if you're using it to go to the Jordan bowl / Oz area
#6
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Posted 13 July 2016 - 09:00 PM
Looking more closely at the pictures, I have to wonder how damaged it really is ... it's bolted to the concrete base, not set in concrete.
The entire assembly tipped over until it was resting on the ground; obviously engineers have to inspect, but going by the pictures, it doesn't look bent, distorted, etc.
Interestingly, it looks like a goodly sized chunk of the underlying rock the concrete was set into is still attached (you can see the rebar that was drilled into the rock still sticking out, after it was pulled free of the rest of the rock).
What this really shows is the kind of immense stresses on these systems ... all that wire rope + chairs is a LOT of weight, in a transverse (sideways) load, at that. From an engineering standpoint, that's always the toughest to design for.
My guess is, they'll reset the return, repair as needed, and drill halfway to China to ensure it doesn't pull out of the rock again.
The entire assembly tipped over until it was resting on the ground; obviously engineers have to inspect, but going by the pictures, it doesn't look bent, distorted, etc.
Interestingly, it looks like a goodly sized chunk of the underlying rock the concrete was set into is still attached (you can see the rebar that was drilled into the rock still sticking out, after it was pulled free of the rest of the rock).
What this really shows is the kind of immense stresses on these systems ... all that wire rope + chairs is a LOT of weight, in a transverse (sideways) load, at that. From an engineering standpoint, that's always the toughest to design for.
My guess is, they'll reset the return, repair as needed, and drill halfway to China to ensure it doesn't pull out of the rock again.
#7
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Posted 14 July 2016 - 07:15 AM
snoloco, on 13 July 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:
Another Borvig lift. Ski areas ought to be doing a full scale purge of those death traps just like the Yan HSQ's
I can't believe this incident has anything to do with the lift itself, could have been any manufacturer. I think this has more to do with original site engineering. As for the other incidents involving Borvigs I thought those came down to maintenance, again could have been any manufacturer.
_litz, on 13 July 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:
4 straight days of an inch plus of rain per day ...
Not sure where that information came from, I live near by there and for the 4 day before this happened we're lucky if we even got a inch of rain over the 4 days
This post has been edited by JHappel: 14 July 2016 - 07:15 AM
#8
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Posted 14 July 2016 - 07:31 AM
im not going to ride this lift again until its replaced. Just this lift, not all borvigs
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#10
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Posted 14 July 2016 - 11:40 AM
what were these tow lifts?
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#11
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Posted 14 July 2016 - 12:44 PM
Not sure, haven't had a chance to research any of this yet. What I was told is the lift at Gunstock was a Doppelmayr and it had only been there for 5 years, no idea about Mad River, I'm sure if you searched enough you could find a news article about them.
Just trying to point out this could happen to any brand of lift at any age.
Just trying to point out this could happen to any brand of lift at any age.
#12
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Posted 14 July 2016 - 02:11 PM
Sacdelic_Skier, on 14 July 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:
im not going to ride this lift again until its replaced. Just this lift, not all borvigs
Honestly, why are you blaming the lift here? If anything you should be applauding this lift.
It has quite clearly, from the pictures, stayed in one piece ... and at least visually, without damage.
It's laying on its back - in one piece - still attached to a big chunk of rock that used to be its foundation.
You can't blame a lift for falling over when its foundation disappears out from underneath ... that's going to happen with any manufacturer's product; it's simple physics.
#14
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Posted 14 July 2016 - 05:26 PM
Sacdelic_Skier, on 14 July 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:
im not going to ride this lift again until its replaced. Just this lift, not all borvigs
Trolling or serious?
Ski Instructor at Thunder Ridge... 300 vertical feet 45 minutes north of New York City. 3 Borvig chairs from the 60s and early 70s.
#15 Guest_Short Summers_*
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Posted 15 July 2016 - 08:09 AM
Why blame Borvig? I don't think they produce concrete or hydraulic grout which is obviously what failed!
From the 30 years of success the lift had, it would seem to me that the original attachment was well done.
It would be most interesting to have a close look around the base of that pillar, to see how well the seal to the ledge has been maintained over the years. Sure, there could be a seam of water in the ledge too, but history says to look at the human element, of all sorts, when something like this happens. Had the lift been worked on recently? C.W. raised or lowered? Work at the drive end that would require the cable to be "rigged" and removed? Towers de-railed to work on sheave trains? Or some such maintenance that would have raised the tension above normal? Again, nothing to do with Borvig!
Let's use facts here before casting blame in any direction. The skiing public is already freaked out by these sort of failures. Blame in the wrong direction will just make it worse.
From the 30 years of success the lift had, it would seem to me that the original attachment was well done.
It would be most interesting to have a close look around the base of that pillar, to see how well the seal to the ledge has been maintained over the years. Sure, there could be a seam of water in the ledge too, but history says to look at the human element, of all sorts, when something like this happens. Had the lift been worked on recently? C.W. raised or lowered? Work at the drive end that would require the cable to be "rigged" and removed? Towers de-railed to work on sheave trains? Or some such maintenance that would have raised the tension above normal? Again, nothing to do with Borvig!
Let's use facts here before casting blame in any direction. The skiing public is already freaked out by these sort of failures. Blame in the wrong direction will just make it worse.
#16
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Posted 15 July 2016 - 03:00 PM
I find the chunk of rock still attached to the concrete to be very interesting ... that fairly clearly shows there was a crack, and a separation of the rock below ground level ....
So here's a question ... when inspecting a foundation, how do you check for this? Underground radar?
Sound probes?
The "how" of what happened here is pretty clear : the rock cracked, and the rebar wasn't sufficient to bear the tension/weight of the lift ... not surprising, it was hardly ever expected or designed to.
The "why" is what will be interesting to follow ... the geology of what happened, etc.
So here's a question ... when inspecting a foundation, how do you check for this? Underground radar?
Sound probes?
The "how" of what happened here is pretty clear : the rock cracked, and the rebar wasn't sufficient to bear the tension/weight of the lift ... not surprising, it was hardly ever expected or designed to.
The "why" is what will be interesting to follow ... the geology of what happened, etc.
#17
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Posted 17 July 2016 - 04:24 AM
Short Summers, on 15 July 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:
Why blame Borvig?
It is hard to blame a defunct company for a product that failed after 30 years of use.
Short Summers, on 15 July 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:
I don't think they produce concrete or hydraulic grout which is obviously what failed!
Borvig also didn't produce the iron ore in the steel, the PVC shielding the com wire, etc. As far as we know, however, Borvig did design and install this lift and therefore was involved in the construction of the footings.
#19
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Posted 18 July 2016 - 02:54 PM
JHappel, on 14 July 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:
Not sure, haven't had a chance to research any of this yet. What I was told is the lift at Gunstock was a Doppelmayr and it had only been there for 5 years, no idea about Mad River, I'm sure if you searched enough you could find a news article about them.
Funny you should mention it, when I tried looking ('Gunstock' was included in my search) all the results were for Sunday River, presumably because of less internet news focus at that time or because the Sunday River ones, which are more recent, all refer to a similar incident at Gunstock
What was the exact year again that it happened at Gunstock? 1990 or 91 or something? Because, their 80's series of installs include ; (all Doppy)
1986 Summit Chair (Triple) (this is from new england ski history, but I read somewhere else it was a 1985 install)
1986 Gunshy Double
1986 Tiger Triple
1987 Ramrod Quad
Basically, ruling out the Ramrod Quad if it happened in 1991
Keep in mind Pistol was a double at the time, built by Meuller and made in 70s meaning that it doesn't fit the criteria for the mystery lift.
I do know that Tiger and the current Summit area are both fairly steep and/or uneven at spots, I believe that may factor in a lift falling off it's foundation.
This post has been edited by NHskier13: 18 July 2016 - 02:55 PM
#20
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Posted 20 July 2016 - 02:19 PM
Preliminary report is a failure of the grout holding the rebar into the rock underlying the foundation ...
(personally, I think there has to be a rock crack issue too, going by the large chunk of rock still attached to the concrete base of the return terminal)
http://www.sundayriver.com/news
(personally, I think there has to be a rock crack issue too, going by the large chunk of rock still attached to the concrete base of the return terminal)
http://www.sundayriver.com/news
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