28 replies to this topic

[julestheshiba]

The first ones that come to mind for me are Gold Coast, Big Blue, Sherwood, Roundhouse, and Shirley Lake at Squaw/Alpine. Another few are Homestake, Quincy, and Carpenter at Deer Valley.

[Mike12164]

I always thought of loading carpets as am overly complicated solution to a simple problem. Proper maze design and better training for lift operators can and will accomplish the same thing basically for free.

[SkiDaBird]

Mike12164, on 05 April 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

I always thought of loading carpets as am overly complicated solution to a simple problem. Proper maze design and better training for lift operators can and will accomplish the same thing basically for free.

They do reduce misloads in my experience, but it does seem a little much, especially on high speed lifts.

[floridaskier]

The way DV seems to handle misloads at Carpenter and Quincy (and Northside too) is having a second operator on the inside of the chair to scoop up little kids before they have to stop the chair at busy times. Lower-tech and probably cheaper and more effective. Homestake (fixed quad) gets mobbed at the end of the day - if they could run it a little faster with a carpet then maybe it's useful, but it seems like it would be a little hard to train beginners to use it right without stopping the chair all the time. The chairs are really close together as is on Homestake.

I've only seen two so far (King Con at PCMR and chair 4 at Vail) but I'm really not convinced HS loading carpets are useful at all. Any lift with a lot of beginner skiers will stop all the time, whether you confuse them with carpets or not. The load gates on the old six packs at PCMR are confusing enough as is for the masses.

[snoloco]

Morningside at Steamboat comes to mind for needing a loading carpet. Elkhead is being replaced by a HSQ this summer, but if it weren't, it definitely needed one.

[julestheshiba]

Then what is the best way to clear the crowds

[2milehi]

I've seen plenty of explosions on the loading carpet (present company included) which require the lift to be stopped. Your just trading one set of problems for another.

[Lift Dinosaur]

julestheshiba, on 06 April 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

Then what is the best way to clear the crowds

"Proper maze design and better training for lift operators can and will accomplish the same thing basically for free."
Agreed. The best way is to have operators trained to ENGAGE the next group of skiers with direct conversation and instruct them each time as to what is going to happen. Standing by the side saying "How are you?" and "How was your run?" are something that was invented by the Marketing Department.
It needs to be "OK folks, you're next... follow this next chair out...OK make room for you partners...here's the chair...See YA" and repeat...all day long.
At least that's what I used to do back in the day and my partner and I could run a double in an intermediate part of the mountain all day WITHOUT a stop. That was our goal.
$0.04
Dino

[NHskier13]

"Proper maze design and better training for lift operators can and will accomplish the same thing basically for free."

Love this.
@julestheshiba, I think you may be a little misled but loading carpets don't really increase uphill cap significantly - it allows for faster lift operation which in theory would get a few hundred more people up the hill, however, in practice, it really is not effective as it causes a lot of slows and stops. A properly designed maze definitely helps. Oftentimes I see that sometimes the lifties just go on no craps given mode and let people through. There is then hiccups as just before the loading zone there are groups of 4... 5... 6 that still haven't split up. Another thing is loading area space. Sunapee did a great job of this on their new Sun Bowl express quad, which has a very spacious area to load and re organize before the loading zone and everything - certainly an improvement over the old quad which had wooden things to divide skiers, then funnel back into a skinny space. Oftentimes the dude on the outside would get shafted by a snowboarder and possibly be pushed off or sit on the handles of the chair. (No offense snowboarders ;) )
And lift operators - more experienced ones would always make a difference. Probably couldn't explain why without offending any new lift operators, and I couldn't do better so I will not go into that especially since I probably would sound totally like a fool

[snoloco]

According to Killington's website, they run every lift at full design speed unless it's windy or if it's a beginner lift.

They run the Ramshead Express at 800 fpm while it's rated to run at 1,100. It doesn't seem to slow or stop much at that speed, but I sort of think it's too slow and that running at 900-950 would work better. I actually have trouble loading when the chair is going too slow as I'll move up too early and hit the chair in front of me. I wonder if it's possible to design a detachable lift with a lower terminal speed, while maintaining the same loading interval. Is it the speed or the loading interval that causes the most issues? I believe the Bluebird Express at Mount Snow has a slower terminal speed than the Kaatskill Flyer at Hunter, even though Bluebird runs faster and has a shorter loading interval.

If speed is the issue, than the best replacement for Ramshead (which often has the longest line on the mountain) would be a 6-pack with a 3,600 pph capacity, and a slow terminal speed that would allow it to run full design speed and have a greater capacity. I also am curious as to whether it is possible to do a modification to lower the terminal speed of a detachable lift.

[NHskier13]

Terminal speed would probably just be an issue of gearing if I had to guess. Insight?

[Backbowlsbilly]

I have mixed feelings about loading carpets on detachables, sometimes they help beginners and getting people to load efficiently and effectively but the same result can be had with a well organized lift maze. So far I think that the loading carpets on Vail's Chair #4 and Breckenridge's Colorado Superchair probably do more harm then good in what I've experienced but the one on Beaver Creek's Centennial Chondola is more effective (the loading gates especially, since they prevent people from trying to load a gondola cabin when it comes through). Bottom line, they aren't necessary in my brief experience to load people effectively.

Although I can't say I've experienced this in person, I think loading carpets on fixed grip lifts can increase the full design speed of the lift.

[julestheshiba]

I think cadence chains are a problem for loading speeds

[missouriskier]

I think I've ridden the new Colorado SuperChair about five times, and I cannot see how the loading carpet helps anything. It seems to run too fast and always comes within a few inches of shoving my skis up against the skis of the people who are loading the chair in front. I would guess that it frightens and confuses more people than anything else. I was prepared for it the first time I rode it, but it was, and still is, a pretty weird feeling to ride it.

[snoloco]

The lift I mentioned earlier (Ramshead Express @ Killington) is a 1996 model, so it doesn't have a cadence chain.

It's set up as 90 degree loading, so a replament lift set up the same way could have only the turnarounds at loading speed, giving a slightly lower speed.

90 degree loading is a problem on lifts with a fast terminal speed because there is only a very short time to load when the chair isn't turning. Hunter's Kaatskill Flyer has this problem. Fastest terminal speed of any detachable I've seen. The 6 pack chairs absolutely whip around the turns and if you don't load while the chair is straight, it can knock you over.

A replacement for Ramshead would need to use a longer terminal geared with a slower speed, but still a design speed of 1,100 to match the old lift. That and a well organized queue would help reduce stops and slows and allow the lift to run at or close to full design speed.

[vons]

I agree that maze design and ops are a more affordable fix. One of the biggest issues I have seen at numerous resorts is that the approach to the wait board is not long enough for groups of passengers to organize themselves before they reach the wait boards. Resorts seem to try to merge one more group or add singles right up to the wait board causing mayhem that spills on to the ramp causing stops etc. A good approach that is long enough to let passengers settle into groups, combined with operators who engage and actively coach passengers at the boards works the best.

[NHskier13]

Engaging lifties always seemed to be the most helpful, definitely agree with everything vons says

[julestheshiba]

vons, on 07 April 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

I agree that maze design and ops are a more affordable fix. One of the biggest issues I have seen at numerous resorts is that the approach to the wait board is not long enough for groups of passengers to organize themselves before they reach the wait boards. Resorts seem to try to merge one more group or add singles right up to the wait board causing mayhem that spills on to the ramp causing stops etc. A good approach that is long enough to let passengers settle into groups, combined with operators who engage and actively coach passengers at the boards works the best.

this is squaws biggest problem

[liftmech]

julestheshiba, on 06 April 2016 - 05:54 PM, said:

I think cadence chains are a problem for loading speeds

How so? Cadence chains run at specific speeds to ensure proper spacing, and are not related to loading speed. In my experience they haven't been a problem.
My current crew has been more active in 'coaching' this season, and it's helped immensely.

[julestheshiba]

Cadence chains seem to have a larger margin of error compared to tires I would guess. I also thought that cadence chains were phased out for not being effective?