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Emergency Shutdown...Emergency Stop

vons's Photo vons 24 Aug 2012

We could, but when somebody is getting mowed down by a chair the operators are going to hit the biggest red button with out looking, in the past it used to be the emergency shutdown since it was the largest red button (code has since changed this) on the panel.
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chasl's Photo chasl 25 Aug 2012

Finally we have gotten to the crux of the problem.
Ultimately it is not the maintenance personnel, owners or the manufacturers who have created this issue; we really need to look at the ANSI committee.
The committees that draft the codes ultimately end talking about liability, now we are talking lawyers. Regardless of the intensions, the codes final outcome is about liability, not always functionality.
We had this same issue when B77 came up with the RPD’. I for one, what with the higher speeds that the lifts are being operated to today defiantly, will not dispute the need for an RPD system. But with that said at the time the RPD requirement came into effect, there was not a switch able to perform all of the functions required by the new code, they just went ahead and wrote the code in then left it up to the manufacturers to design a system. Keep in mind most of the codes that fall into the electronics category have a grey area for interpretation, and EVERY manufacturer will interpret the design parameters differently. Therefore we end up with different operational characteristics between manufacturers.
So as I see it there are two choices 1. Train your operators properly on your system (contrary to many opinions it is possible) and 2. Talk with your manufacturer and ask for a remote stop station that would be directly adjacent to your operator and make the switch you want used clearly obvious to your personnel. Then again with some of the electronically minded personnel at each area, come up with your own. As long as a station, as required by code, is near the operator, your authority having jurisdiction should not have a problem with a secondary station or single switch prominent on your existing station, then again I could be wrong, I have been once or twice before. From some of the comments I have seen it may be a worthwhile endeavor.
This post has been edited by chasl: 25 August 2012 - 03:25 AM
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Emax's Photo Emax 27 Aug 2012

View Postvons, on 24 August 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

We could, but when somebody is getting mowed down by a chair the operators are going to hit the biggest red button with out looking, in the past it used to be the emergency shutdown since it was the largest red button (code has since changed this) on the panel.


My solution to this was to place the e-stop button off-plane - that is, at the top of the station. Easy enough to distinguish the two when done this way.
The state still insisted that the e-stop have a guard around it though. The photo shows an older version that uses the standard "cup guard". I have since changed them to the chrome rack handle scheme - much less costly and far more practical. The second photo shows these button guards.

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Kelly's Photo Kelly 27 Aug 2012

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Going back to the very first post using the picture as the reference…Hummm even I am confused, perhaps the questions is somewhat misleading, isn’t the label Emergency Shutdown a visual light (not an actual stop button) that indicates some type of Emergency Stop has occurred?

…and adding to the confusion it would seem if that if that is true there are now two indicator lights for that condition (see the Christmas tree indicators).

Bud - I like the pedestal layout.
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Emax's Photo Emax 27 Aug 2012

View PostKelly, on 27 August 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

Attachement Stop-I-think.jpg

Going back to the very first post using the picture as the reference…Hummm even I am confused, perhaps the questions is somewhat misleading, isn’t the label Emergency Shutdown a visual light (not an actual stop button) that indicates some type of Emergency Stop has occurred?

…and adding to the confusion it would seem if that if that is true there are now two indicator lights for that condition (see the Christmas tree indicators).

Bud - I like the pedestal layout.


Which one?
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SkiLiftsRock's Photo SkiLiftsRock 27 Aug 2012

View PostKelly, on 27 August 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

Attachement Stop-I-think.jpg

Going back to the very first post using the picture as the reference…Hummm even I am confused, perhaps the questions is somewhat misleading, isn’t the label Emergency Shutdown a visual light (not an actual stop button) that indicates some type of Emergency Stop has occurred?

…and adding to the confusion it would seem if that if that is true there are now two indicator lights for that condition (see the Christmas tree indicators).

Bud - I like the pedestal layout.

every panel on that lift has that button, even the AUX start panel in the motor room has it too. Every panel on this lift has the emergency shutdown button.

Its not just this lift, its on all the panels that were being manufactured back at Doppelmayr's office for the upcoming installations.

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It is part of the christmas tree on the low voltage panel (Drive station) for both terminals.
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edits: added pictures
This post has been edited by SkiLiftsRock: 27 August 2012 - 05:22 PM
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Kelly's Photo Kelly 03 Sep 2012

SkiLiftsRock thanks for the answers.
4 stop buttons makes sense if they are to be used by a mechanic however 4 different stop switches seems like utter madness for a lift operator.
Any advantages of stop selection are overshadowed by the time it would take to make a decision on what stop to select…hummmm do I select stop #17…ah hell just hit emergency cause it gives me a 10 minute break until the mechanic shows up to reset the system. :mellow:
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SkiLiftsRock's Photo SkiLiftsRock 05 Sep 2012

Razvan

View PostKelly, on 03 September 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

SkiLiftsRock thanks for the answers.
4 stop buttons makes sense if they are to be used by a mechanic however 4 different stop switches seems like utter madness for a lift operator.
Any advantages of stop selection are overshadowed by the time it would take to make a decision on what stop to select…hummmm do I select stop #17…ah hell just hit emergency cause it gives me a 10 minute break until the mechanic shows up to reset the system. :mellow:

Yeah...too many choices. What Razvan described in the second post made sense with the different ways of stopping the lift, but has there been an incident where if the "Properly Trained" operator could have used the stop for such emergency? maybe not. ANSI might just be trying to to what is safe and have the best of options for any emergency situation.

Razvan's quote: Emergency shutdown: motor is shut down (power to it is shut down, i.e. its contactor is opened), then service or emergency brake (or both; check your manual) is applied immediately, bringing the lift to a more aggressive stop.
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skier691's Photo skier691 06 Sep 2012

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Simple fix to it all!!! Simpler times. Recent find at a defunct MI ski area
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2milehi's Photo 2milehi 08 Sep 2012

Gotta say it - Poma gets it right. Normal Stop and an Emergency Shutdown. If a quicker ramped stop is required (Anti-collision) let the PLC figure it out.
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Emax's Photo Emax 09 Sep 2012

View Post2milehi, on 08 September 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Gotta say it - Poma gets it right. Normal Stop and an Emergency Shutdown. If a quicker ramped stop is required (Anti-collision) let the PLC figure it out.


Score one for the French!
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Lift Dinosaur's Photo Lift Dinosaur 09 Sep 2012

View PostEmax, on 09 September 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:


Score one for the French!

Score one for the Gentlemen in Grand Junction. Totally different than 'the French'.....
Dino
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Emax's Photo Emax 09 Sep 2012

View PostLift Dinosaur, on 09 September 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Score one for the Gentlemen in Grand Junction. Totally different than 'the French'.....
Dino


10-4. My oversight.
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fireonthemountain's Photo fireonthemountain 23 Mar 2017

So this question in relation to an Apu...We have an 82 dopp and have recently been told the emergency stop must kill the engine...I know in current code this is the case but the current code also makes the stop and e shutdown the same...How is it stated for code around 85'...I can't even find estop in the 2006 code...Only e shutdown...Is this an upgrade were required to make? We have another lift the same vintage that does the same thing...The estop applies the brakes and stops forward momentum but does not kill the engine
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fireonthemountain's Photo fireonthemountain 23 Mar 2017

The lift is also not equipped with an e shutdown only an e stop...What year were they combined???
This post has been edited by fireonthemountain: 23 March 2017 - 09:09 AM
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_litz's Photo _litz 23 Mar 2017

Procedural question ... if you emergency shutdown the lift, is that a condition the operator can reset from? Or is that considered only something a qualified mechanic/engineer can reset?

What kind of wear/damage can happen to braking systems with that kind of forceful "stop NOW" application? I can't imagine they'd take very many applications, stopping a fully loaded lift, until they'd wear down pretty significantly. That's a heckuva lot of energy to dissipate. Consider also, not only do those systems have to stop the lift, but they have to hold it, too, to prevent a rollback.
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Allan's Photo Allan 23 Mar 2017

View Postfireonthemountain, on 23 March 2017 - 09:05 AM, said:

So this question in relation to an Apu...We have an 82 dopp and have recently been told the emergency stop must kill the engine...I know in current code this is the case but the current code also makes the stop and e shutdown the same...How is it stated for code around 85'...I can't even find estop in the 2006 code...Only e shutdown...Is this an upgrade were required to make? We have another lift the same vintage that does the same thing...The estop applies the brakes and stops forward momentum but does not kill the engine


I don't know the B77 at all, but we've had this requirement in the Z98 for a while. I always thought the engine shutdown was more to protect the employees and machinery if something were to go sideways.
I'd chat with Doppelmayr if your lift still has their controls running it - it may be a simple solution.
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Allan's Photo Allan 23 Mar 2017

View Post_litz, on 23 March 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:

Procedural question ... if you emergency shutdown the lift, is that a condition the operator can reset from? Or is that considered only something a qualified mechanic/engineer can reset?

What kind of wear/damage can happen to braking systems with that kind of forceful "stop NOW" application? I can't imagine they'd take very many applications, stopping a fully loaded lift, until they'd wear down pretty significantly. That's a heckuva lot of energy to dissipate. Consider also, not only do those systems have to stop the lift, but they have to hold it, too, to prevent a rollback.

If the operator stopped it - they can reset, here anyways.

No damage should happen from any stop. Slight wear on the brake pads (they can last for years under normal operating and testing.) It's not necessarily a stop now application, especially on an unloaded or downhill loaded lift - where E-Shutdowns can actually be longer than a normal stop. An uphill loaded lift will stop itself pretty quickly without any braking power. These systems are designed to be used to stop and hold and should be tested regularly to make sure they do. This is all based on our equipment.
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comeagain?'s Photo comeagain? 24 Mar 2017

My personal opinion re: the number of stop controls on operator consoles is that any more than 2 ways to stop the lift is confusing, and when something is happening, I don't want operators to stop and decide which button is best. I've trained ride operators at a theme park and the consoles that have multiple ways to stop always end up being difficult to explain and many new ops are intimidated by it. Same thing if there are 'rules' as to when one control can or can't be used.

I would personally like to see
  • "Stop" - Used in most situations like a misload, at the end of the day, or other common stops. Ops can restart like normal.
  • "Emergency Stop" - Used to stop NOW. Life or death type situations or when other controls aren't working, and should ideally never be used (except during testing). I would expect it to cut power to the drive. Ops can still restart, albeit probably different procedures.

If the PLC has multiple ways to slow/stop the lift in different situations it is stopping automatically, that's great. But the operator controls should be consistent in whatever method they trigger.

View Post_litz, on 23 March 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:

Procedural question ... if you emergency shutdown the lift, is that a condition the operator can reset from? Or is that considered only something a qualified mechanic/engineer can reset?


On the lifts that I ran this season (All old Riblet doubles), ops can reset emergency stops. They are all labeled "Emergency Stop" but also have older labels that say "Emergency Shutdown". The only exception is the lift that requires you to manually pump up the emergency brake.
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_litz's Photo _litz 24 Mar 2017

Seems to me that the comment a few replies back about "the guy's gonna slap the big red button that's easiest to get to" is probably truest, it's really just human nature.

In case of emergency, nobody should have to think .. it should just be instinctual.

A good example of this is locomotives : there's no big red button for an engineer to push called "Emergency Stop".

Instead, if you advance the brake lever fully, there's "full brake", and then, after a slight detente, there's "emergency brake".

What's the most instinctual thing you do when you want to stop NOW? you slap the brake on FULL (just like your car, when you stomp the brake). This design simply ensures that when you do that instinctual action, it takes care of the emergency application for you.

I can easily see how those consoles with all those multiple stop modes can be quite intimidating ....

In many applications, all over various industries, many operators just want a "go" button and a "stop" button, so they don't have to think.
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