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T-Bar Cable


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#1 Don CoyoteŽ

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Posted 06 August 2020 - 02:18 PM

Hey guys!!! I'm back!!!

….. (Naah, you don't know me..... but I used this forum about ten years ago when I was attempting to resurrect an antique Platter Lift and then a T-Bar at historic Mount Mancelona in Michigan).

(I'm still plugging away at it).



So, the owner of the property wants to make our 1958 Doppelmayr T-Bar pass a State Inspection. His first mission is to replace the rope.

….. He found THIS..... (Does anyone have any experience with wire rope and can tell me if this is good, or bad stuff?) ………….
Silence is golden,..... Duct Tape is silver.

#2 Don CoyoteŽ

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Posted 06 August 2020 - 02:19 PM

……… My pic didn't load?
Silence is golden,..... Duct Tape is silver.

#3 Don CoyoteŽ

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Posted 06 August 2020 - 02:20 PM

I think I got it, now............ :angelic:

Attached File(s)

  • Attached File  Cable.jpg (302.14K)
    Number of downloads: 62

Silence is golden,..... Duct Tape is silver.

#4 Don CoyoteŽ

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Posted 06 August 2020 - 02:25 PM

If anyone wants to kill a couple hours, here is a bit of history from the forums...……………….


http://www.skilifts....ft&fromsearch=1
Silence is golden,..... Duct Tape is silver.

#5 Lift Dinosaur

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Posted 11 August 2020 - 05:23 AM

To start with, your owner should get ahold of whoever is going to splice the rope and ask them what they think. The State may also want an engineer to review the entire installation if it’s been sitting for a while.
If all that falls on deaf ears, contact the State and ask them what will be required to pass their Inspection....
"Things turn out best for the people that make the best of the way things turn out." A.L.

#6 kwoodsparky

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 06:38 AM

Most likely it is going to have to be brought up to whatever Ansi code the state is using at this time, brakes electrical etc.

This post has been edited by kwoodsparky: 12 August 2020 - 06:39 AM


#7 william b

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Posted 13 August 2020 - 04:26 AM

As a State Inspector myself, here are my thoughts. Every state has different requirements for approval and operation of ski lifts. Most ski states adopt the B.77.1 Standard, and some states add some amendments to that. I would start by contacting the Michigan Authorities, to make sure that you are going in the right direction. Recent developments at that office might make your efforts more challenging, but I am sure they can steer you in the right direction.
Regarding the rope itself, I have a couple observations... First, you will need a manufacturer's certificate that shows the rated strength, and a destruction test that shows the load at which the rope failed under tension. There are a host of other qualifying requirements for haul ropes... they are listed in the B.77.1 Standard. Additionally, for surface lifts, we usually see 6x7 rope where possible, or 6x25, rather than 6x37. I think the idea is to have fewer wires of larger diameter for a surface lift application.
Again, check first with the Michigan authorities; next check with a known wire rope expert from the industry. This wire rope needs to be at least equivalent to the original one. You will need to check that against the original design documents for the lift.

Good Luck,
wbl

#8 Kelly

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Posted 13 August 2020 - 08:54 AM

Hello all – before posting I did a little search on this area and thought this added information would be of interest to forum readership.
Area Facebook page: https://www.facebook...mountmancelona/
Ski Area is located in Michigan
Michigan does have a quasi-oversight system for ropeways.
Michigan Ski Area Safety Program: https://www.michigan...75741--,00.html
The ski area safety program exists under Michigan Licensing and Regulatory Affairs (LARA)
LARA: https://www.michigan.gov/lara/
Oversight is combined with Construction Codes, the Elevator Division and that is then combined with Amusement Rides… Michigan has labeled it the Ski-Amusement Division (I could make a joke with the acronym SAD or not using a more technical term like Ropeway… I like the acronym RAD)
Michigan Ski Program: https://www.michigan...8174---,00.html
Michigan does have a list of forms and steps needed for successful project completion available online (use the above link - scroll down halfway).
They also have a comprehensive checklist for Altered and New Lifts, this goes from the initial permit to the final load test. They call it an Exhibits Checklist (ropeway might be the more familiar term for our readers).
Michigan Exhibits Checklist (about 50-60 items): https://www.michigan...75752--,00.html
Michigan touts they have…53 ski areas with 157 surface and chair lifts and 141 rope tows…
Michigan also has in its laws a comprehensive act that covers ropeway and ski area oversight.
Michigan Laws: http://www.legislatu...act-199-of-1962
Within the laws it states there is a provision for a tramway board and chief engineer…which I am pretty sure they don’t have any acting person(s) filling those roles but I’ll check and post that information when I receive it.
Michigan also has adopted ANSI B-77 2012 as its latest code for ropeways (I mean ski lifts) on August 10, 2017. For those wondering there are more current ropeway standards…
Michigan B-77 2012 adoption: https://www.michigan...es_611615_7.pdf
Michigan does require liability insurance and permits before ropeways can operate with public.
Michigan ski lift oversight inspector(s) did slap the operators of this resort with a stop-order (my wording) last winter for running the t-bar to the public without liability and permits (this is covered in the area's Facebook page).
Many Michigan ski areas belong to the Midwest Ski Areas Association (MSAA), MSAA provides limited ropeway maintenance training and networking at their summer conferences.
MSAA: http://www.msaaevents.org/
MSAA is also featured in our forums for Maintenance Conference organizations: http://www.skilifts....showtopic=10952
Don Coyote…
I can vouch for Lift Dino, William B and Kwoodsparky’s expertise, and truly, words of wisdom. It's now time to network with the mechs at other local ski areas - they have some of the same problems. There are many steps to get this old thing running…gear teeth ndt, commlines, new safety circuit, rope catchers, derail switches and circuit, weld ntd, grip and carriers etc. As they mentioned - Splicers and State authorities are must have resources. I would like to add one other thing is to find an insurance carrier that will issue a policy for pubic ski lift operation…I suspect this will be one of your biggest financial hurdles.
Oh, one last thing…I think its time to form a safety committee at your area, you could use this picture as a talking-point for improvements – Good Luck and please keep us posted on your progress.
Attached File  Chainsaw-safety.jpg (103.54K)
Number of downloads: 35
Chainsaw safety: https://www.facebook...62057643805230/
www.ropetech.org

#9 Don CoyoteŽ

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Posted 13 August 2020 - 04:59 PM

Wow,..... Thank you, Kelly. That is a huge resource you have there. Thank you also, Dinosaur, Sparky and Willie B for the replies.

….. For the record, the State of Michigan slapped us with a "Cease-and-Desist" because some azzhat from Shanty Creek got a bug up his arse and claimed that we were selling tickets to the public. That is entirely false: we were simply "Privately" using the lift and inviting all of our friends to play... FREE OF CHARGE. (Until we ran out of gas... then we would "pass the hat" and run to the gas station).

(My Baby in action..….)…………….

https://www.youtube....h?v=_HLZWkliF4g
Silence is golden,..... Duct Tape is silver.

#10 backyard lift

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Posted 14 August 2020 - 07:21 PM

An IWRC core is rarely, if ever, used for a haul rope on a t bar or platter. Also the typical mineral oil lube used on these ropes is not compatible with the rubber liners.

#11 Kelly

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Posted 16 August 2020 - 11:06 AM

Don Coyote:
Don I can vouch for Backyard Lifts expertise – wrong construction, wrong oil and wrong rope.
You mentioned (or implied) non-paying riders somehow relived you of responsibilities that your State might require for ropeway operation. I am assuming your using the “they were negligent not my problem” theme in your thinking when you loaded riders – hey it sounds good but it really doesn’t work with public and machinery interaction (your t-bar). You no doubt by now know the basic mechanical workings but have you given any thought to: loading instructions, loading ramp shape, preloading ramps, uphill tracks, unloading ramps, danger trees etc. The lack of knowledge just with those issues has injured many riders … please get some training along with added outside expertise.

Now there are some exceptions for responsibility that “might be” used by other States:
A. Owned by a corporation and only used by corporation’s principle officers (President, Vice President and Treasurer)
B. Owned by a family and only used by direct relatives in that family
C. Used by select riders for accessing other facilities such as mountain radar, dam or tv installations
D. Is an industrial ropeway used to haul freight only

You don’t fall into any of those categories (if they ever existed in the first place).
Again, it must be mentioned, just because someone doesn’t pay does not absolve you of mechanical or moral responsibility for proper ropeway operation. If you have any other questions please feel free to post and good luck with you endeavors.
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