64 replies to this topic

[Skier123]

I have a few questions and comments about Yan high speed quads and what happened when they were retrofitted.

#1: Why did Yan use marshmallow springs? If they had used high tension springs they might still be around today. Yan should've waited a few years to develope a safer design like the other lift manufacturers rather than immediately begin building detachable lifts.

#2: In a retrofit such as this one at Sun Valley...

Before:  ChallengerExpressYan_Pre-retrofit.jpg (140.38K)
Number of downloads: 412 After:  ChallengerExpressDoppelmayr_Post-retrofit.jpg (75.29K)
Number of downloads: 440

...what parts of the original lift are kept and what parts are changed? Obviously the grips and in most cases the terminal skins are changed. What else?

#3: In some cases, only the grips of the carriers are changed and in others, the entire carrier is replaced. Why is this?

 ChristmassEpressTop.jpg (58.83K)
Number of downloads: 332  LookoutExpressTop.jpg (64.26K)
Number of downloads: 307

#4: This is kind of a rhetorical question, but why do Yan's high speed look so old? The bullwheels look ancient, and so do some of the sheaves. Their high speed quads aren't really that old.
Here's a picture of the bullwheel:

 LaRocaBullwheel.jpg (58.2K)
Number of downloads: 451

Here's is a picture of the old-looking sheaves:

 LaRocaTerminalSheaves.jpg (54.62K)
Number of downloads: 579

#5: My final question is just me being really confused. Is this picture of a Yan design or a Doppelmayr retrofit design?

 CanyonExpressBottom.jpg (66.26K)
Number of downloads: 353

If you have an answer for any of my questions, please reply.

This post has been edited by Skier123: 19 September 2009 - 03:58 PM

[Lift Kid]

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#1: Why did Yan use marshmallow springs? If they had used high tension springs they might still be around today. Yan should've waited a few years to develope a safer design like the other lift manufacturers rather than immediately begin building detachable lifts.

The coil spring was around at this time period. Yan wasn't trying to make an unsafe lift. In fact, he was letting his brilliant engineering thoughts out. He was trying something new. If there was no trial and error, nothing would exist. Engineers, such as Yan have to find new ways to solve old problems. His only downfall in the development of detachable grips was a lack of testing. Perhaps one of the older guys (emax, dino, wanna chime in?) might be able to explain how tests were performed at that time or what might have gone wrong. If Yan didn't try and fail, we would have never learned that rubber grips don't work so well.

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#5: My final question is just me being really confused. Is this picture of a Yan design or a Doppelmayr retrofit design?

If you look closely, you will notice Doppelmayr grips, which means the terminal insides were modified and probably the line gear. Terminal skin is original.

This post has been edited by Lift Kid: 20 September 2009 - 07:16 PM

[pomafr]

Lift Kid, on 20 September 2009 - 07:12 PM, said:

If Yan didn't try and fail, we would have never learned that rubber grips don't work so well.

If Yan had bothered to do proper testing on the grips, then we would have known that rubber grips don't work, and no one would have had to die before we realised.

[Emax]

pomafr, on 21 September 2009 - 03:41 AM, said:

If Yan had bothered to do proper testing on the grips, then we would have known that rubber grips don't work, and no one would have had to die before we realised.

Sadly, in the strict sense, this is true - but your comment clearly does not spring from any serious depth of experience.

Jan's zeal for doing things that had never been done - in ways that had never been tried - was (and still is) without limit. A great deal of lift design that is taken for granted today is not the product of the current (or even past) manufacturers - but actually originated from him. He was as confident as he was bold - a bit heavy on the bold, most would say.

His rate of success with his experimentation was really quite stunning - something like 75%. But since much of his "testing" was conducted on the customer's turf, it is the remaining 25% that is noted by posterity.

As with anything human activity, when one leads the way those that follow learn not only the right directions to go - but the wrong ones as well. Useful information is not restricted to just the positive - both polarities are of equal value.

[Skier123]

Emax, on 21 September 2009 - 05:01 AM, said:

Sadly, in the strict sense, this is true - but your comment clearly does not spring from any serious depth of experience.

Jan's zeal for doing things that had never been done - in ways that had never been tried - was (and still is) without limit. A great deal of lift design that is taken for granted today is not the product of the current (or even past) manufacturers - but actually originated from him. He was as confident as he was bold - a bit heavy on the bold, most would say.

His rate of success with his experimentation was really quite stunning - something like 75%. But since much of his "testing" was conducted on the customer's turf, it is the remaining 25% that is noted by posterity.

As with anything human activity, when one leads the way those that follow learn not only the right directions to go - but the wrong ones as well. Useful information is not restricted to just the positive - both polarities are of equal value.

Everything you say is true, however I think Lift Engineering could've prevented the Quicksilver accident. When several empty chairs fell to the ground not long before the accident, they retrofitted the grips with new ones. However, these grips also had slipping problems. At this point, Yan should've realized a design flaw in the grips. Instead, there was a third unsuccessful retrofit, 3 weeks before the accident. Afterward, 29 of the grips were tested, all of them failed. As you said, if testing was conducted before the installation, problems like these could've been prevented.

[Kicking Horse]

Who said testing was not done before installation. You know not all testing is perfect. The best way to test something is to use it in the "real world" operating conditions. That is really the only sure fire way to test something.

[Peter]

Kicking Horse, on 21 September 2009 - 07:43 PM, said:

Who said testing was not done before installation. You know not all testing is perfect. The best way to test something is to use it in the "real world" operating conditions. That is really the only sure fire way to test something.

Last I checked sand bags/water jugs/kegs behave quite similarly to bodies when put in a chair and subjected to "real world" physics.

[Skier123]

Kicking Horse, on 21 September 2009 - 07:43 PM, said:

Who said testing was not done before installation. You know not all testing is perfect. The best way to test something is to use it in the "real world" operating conditions. That is really the only sure fire way to test something.

All I'm saying is that once the problem with the grips was evident, Lift Engineering did not take the proper steps to fix it.

This post has been edited by Skier123: 21 August 2010 - 07:15 PM

[SkiBachelor]

The Yan high speed quad terminals at June and Mammoth are a custom design can't be found at another ski area.

However, I'm wondering if this may have been a similar design to what Yan's next high speed quad terminal would have looked like. I know some Yan HSQs received Yan's newest carrier model rather than the carriers of the manufacturer who retrofitted them. Christmas at Sun Valley is a good example.

[floridaskier]

Those late Yan HSQ teardrop chairs on Christmas and Frenchman's at Sun Valley are the most comfortable chairs I've ever ridden. Too bad that design didn't stick around

[Peter]

There sure are a lot of them just sitting around in their boneyard!

Attached File(s)

•  svlifts 034.jpg (453.53K)
  Number of downloads: 238

[Emax]

Peter, on 22 September 2009 - 05:26 AM, said:

Last I checked sand bags/water jugs/kegs behave quite similarly to bodies when put in a chair and subjected to "real world" physics.

To clarify this matter a bit for you, ALL Yan bale and grip designs were vibration tested for at least 5,000,000 cycles on a shaker which I helped design.
A cam-operated section of "rope" was deflected 2 inches per revolution at rates that varied from 1 cycle per second to 10 cycles per second. It was intended that this simulated real-world conditions as well as they could be in a factory environment.
I cannot speak for "cold-world" testing of the rubber springs, though.

To my knowledge, Jan was the first manufacturer to install a full-scale test lift on his premises. Virtually all new (and old) designs were tested for extended periods of time on this facility - including various "rope position detectors" made by other companies that proved to be ineffective under expectable crisis conditions. This lift could be run under several programmed scenarios for 24 hours per day.

[Skier123]

SkiBachelor, on 22 September 2009 - 07:41 PM, said:

The Yan high speed quad terminals at June and Mammoth are a custom design can't be found at another ski area.

However, I'm wondering if this may have been a similar design to what Yan's next high speed quad terminal would have looked like. I know some Yan HSQs received Yan's newest carrier model rather than the carriers of the manufacturer who retrofitted them. Christmas at Sun Valley is a good example.

Is it just a matter of when they were retrofitted that determined which carrier they received?

[Peter]

Skier123, on 23 September 2009 - 02:44 PM, said:

Is it just a matter of when they were retrofitted that determined which carrier they received?

No, they were all retrofitted simultaneously during the summer of 1996.

[Skier123]

Peter, on 23 September 2009 - 05:46 PM, said:

No, they were all retrofitted simultaneously during the summer of 1995.

Okay, so I guess they just decided to use the Yan carrier type for a few of them and the Doppelmayr carrier type for the others?

[Kelly]

We seem to be wandering a bit from the original topic.
Please no more uninformed body counts.
For the users that are new to the forums - Emax is one of our most experienced and knowledgeable members, posts #4 and #12 are quite insightful please reread them.
The reason carriers (chairs) were not all immediately changed was due to a huge demand – what worked was left to be replaced later.
Riblet had a quite large test lift in Spokane Washington. I saw it run in 1975…
Link to some Riblet history – Link: http://www.riblet.com/history.htm

[Peter]

That's a good point Kelly about why the retrofits are all a bit different. I think Doppelmayr USA had 15 retrofits that summer in addition to 8 complete installations including an Aerial Tram in Atlanta. The Whistler accident was in late December 1995 but Yan did not order inspections until February 1996. Schweitzer, for example, did not sign a contract with Doppelmayr until June and needed its hsq ready 5 months later. There is a picture in the 1997 Doppelmayr Worldbook of the retrofitted lifts at June Mountain operating during the winter of 96-97 with no covers at all over the Doppelmayr contours.

[Skier123]

Kelly, on 23 September 2009 - 08:47 PM, said:

We seem to be wandering a bit from the original topic.
Please no more uninformed body counts.
For the users that are new to the forums - Emax is one of our most experienced and knowledgeable members, posts #4 and #12 are quite insightful please reread them.
The reason carriers (chairs) were not all immediately changed was due to a huge demand – what worked was left to be replaced later.
Riblet had a quite large test lift in Spokane Washington. I saw it run in 1975…
Link to some Riblet history – Link: http://www.riblet.com/history.htm

The original topic was just me trying to find out more information on Yan high speed quads. Learning about carriers would fall under that category, would it not?

This post has been edited by Skier123: 25 September 2009 - 01:43 PM

[Peter]

There is still an original Yan high speed quad operating in Spain: http://www.remontees...rtage-1057.html

[Kelly]

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...Learning about carries would fall under that category, would it not?

What do you mean when you say "carries" ?
Skilifts.org has a great technical glossary (tabbed on front page) see this link:http://www.skilifts.org/glossary.htm

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#1: Why did Yan use marshmallow springs? If they had used high tension springs they might still be around today.

will post comment later today