166 replies to this topic

[k2skier]

cjb, on Sep 18 2008, 08:04 PM, said:

5. By refusing to sign the Kyoto accord he kept the economy going instead of allowing for regulations and limits that would have resulted in billions of dollars of expense to private business. Funny to see alot of the (facts?) of global warming and man-made global warming unraveling as real unbiased scientists look at real data and not unrealistic computer models.

Please post some links to support your claim on this. I look a NOAA, and their data doesn't support your theory.

[aug]

k2skier, on Sep 20 2008, 01:18 PM, said:

Please post some links to support your claim on this. I look a NOAA, and their data doesn't support your theory.

I do not think I would trust the findings of the NOAA on their conclusions on global warming since they are a government funded org. The only constant with the enviroment or weather on this planet is change and nothing we do will reverse or change it in our lifetimes. How silly we think ourselves as so omnipotent that we could actually infuence the climate with our bad habits. The earth is in no danger , just earth as we know it. Enjoy the ride.

[k2skier]

aug, on Sep 20 2008, 01:33 PM, said:

I do not think I would trust the findings of the NOAA on their conclusions on global warming since they are a government funded org. The only constant with the enviroment or weather on this planet is change and nothing we do will reverse or change it in our lifetimes. How silly we think ourselves as so omnipotent that we could actually infuence the climate with our bad habits. The earth is in no danger , just earth as we know it. Enjoy the ride.

If that was the case then NOAA would claim that global warming doesn't exist. NOAA doesn't place blame, they report the data collected, then draw a synopsis. The rapid raise in average temps over the last 100 years (yes I'm aware of mid-century cooling) can't be ignored and touted as normal climate change. The few times in this planets history that the temperature have risen this quickly, in this short of time span, it has resulted in catastrophic consequences for life on mother earth. Humans omnipotent, no. Stupid and short sighted, yes. Yes, human caused climate forcings are very real. How much is the question.

[Andoman]

aug, on Sep 20 2008, 04:16 PM, said:

This cycle must be stopped and we just perpetuate it by invading countrys against the will of the UN.


The meek shall inherit the earth too bad it will be all f----d up by un peacefull evil people when we do. Yes all drugs should be legal. We should not let it run rampant in the streets. At least then the black market for drugs will be decreased if not all together eliminated. And think of the tax revenues that could be generated by the regulated sale and taxation of recreational drugs and it could be used for the national good or the funding of wars, instead of letting the drug lords reap all of the easy profits from the drug trade. Another added benefit that the jail and prison space would be freed up for real criminals and not just small time dealers and users. Darwinisim would also play a role and thin the gene pool of persons who are addicted to drugs easily. These people could get all the drugs they needed with out having to steal and they would ultimatly live very short lives and die of drug addiction. Now I know that it would be morally correct to send these sorts to a rehab center but the majority are going to relapse anyway so what is the point of trying to help them if they do not want to help themselves.

Do you apply this logic to all illegal activities? If we turn a blind eye where do we stop?

I have to respectfully disagree with the legalized drugs (again I don't have a problem with weed, that stuff is less destructive than booze in my book), my brother is addicted to heroin and he'll be clean for a few years and then relapse. Unfortunately his soul is weak and our only choice is to keep the drugs away from him. Once the opium takes over that's all these people think about, it got my brothers entire class in high school, the heroin dealers got the kids all hooked and never let go. I think the final tally was more than 50 percent of these kids where all hooked on drugs by graduation (only 35% of his class graduated from freshman to senior). The dealers got the kids in 6th and 7th grade, it destroyed my hometown and it was a little soy bean community. The dealers used it as a depot between flint and detroit.

k2skier, on Sep 20 2008, 01:12 PM, said:

No, the numbers of civilian "collateral damage" is higher.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

this is a BS website that has absolutely no data to support the claims, they debunked it on 20/20. Anyone can tell them a friend of my brother's girlfriend's cousin died yesterday, I heard it first hand from a goat, and they'll record it.

This post has been edited by Andoman: 20 September 2008 - 02:48 PM

[cjb]

If my country was ruled by someone the caliber of Saddam, who uses chemical weapons on his own citizens while commiting genocide, and conducts 'real' torture onto his own people, (remember the videos of guys being lined up and thrown of roofs). A guy whose forces would, under orders from him, kidnap, rape, and kill the wives and daughters of political dissedents. I would welcome another country to invade in the same manner thqat the U.S. is doing and I would fight along side them. There is no evidence at all of the U.S. taking oil from Iraq and there is no evidence of the U.S. forcing Christianity on Iraq. They are allowing them to form their own democratic government and the entire country will be better of from it. Those fighting are outsiders from Pakistan, Iran, Syria, etc, along with Iraqi's that are upset that the balance of power is shifting from them to a democratic governement.

The only people that resist freedom are the oppressors.

Consider how good you all have it while sitting and complaining of our President the 'terrorist'. If you were in Saddam's Iraq, China, or Myanmar you would probably already be in jail for writing that, and their jails don't have cable.

[cjb]

Not sure why I am bothering but...

Unstoppable Global Warming, pages 1-260

http://www.dailytech.com/Temperature+Monit...rticle10866.htm

[Emax]

cjb, on Sep 20 2008, 07:13 PM, said:

Not sure why I am bothering but...

Unstoppable Global Warming, pages 1-260

http://www.dailytech.com/Temperature+Monit...rticle10866.htm

Keep your upper lip stiff, Chuck. In the end, others will get the idea.

[aug]

Gentlemen, thanks for arousing my interest in this fiesty forum! I really do appreciate the fact that I have the freedom to express my opinion in writing on a public forum without reprisals from Government officials . You guys make me laugh and think about the movie "Team America World Police". With all of the double talk about injustices that have occured in Iraq(Which Im fairly certain has happened),but remember we were sold a line of WMD's to really convince us to wage war there (Iraq). I am also fairly sure prior to the war we were not using any Iraqi oil due to the embargo that was imposed after the earlier Gulf war. With this new police action we have initiated we can at least now be using( buying,not taking) some percentage of the Iraqi oil production. CJB brings up the fact that the Iraqi government was mistreating its citizens. During my brief life here I have heard of many countries that have had not stellar human rights records and were not invaded or occupied by the American forces. I am just a little curious as to what makes Iraq just a little more special than South Africa, Sudan, Liberia, Nicaragua , Myanmar, Tibet ,Columbia, Timor, Indonesia Phillpines and I am sure I am forgetting some not to dismiss the importance of those countries due to my forgetfullness. And not to forget the erosion of human rights in are own country in the wake of 9/11. The point I am trying to make is historicly our country only invades other countries due to a kneejerk reaction from violence imparted upon its citizens or soldiers. The other reason is to protect and maybe enhance American business interests that are being threatened by unstable governments or other various factions that seem to be out of control. How I wonder what the real stories were , not the watered down media version we are all exposed to and form our opinions around. Just look to the people who will benefit from the actions being taken. They are most likely the ones lobbying for the action. As for my reference to the crusades, In the wake of the 9/11 tragedy, people got on the band wagon that the whole muslim nation was taking the side of the suspects who performed this terrible deed. It seemed to me that alot of hatemail aimed at "muslims " was circulating through the internet system propagated by supposedly Christian sources . Funny how it all gets distorted that a group of militants represents the whole muslim nation, Most people now I hope know the difference. I also wonder how many people we have pissed off in Iraq? How many young sons soured at the Americans for forcing our democracy upon them at the cost of their family members? With this in mind I do not think that we will be running out of vengeful recuits for the terrorist camps. Have a great day.

[chasl]

You just have to live here to really understand what is going on, or not. I have been here in the Middle East for a little over a year now; I must say it has been an eye opener. The average person here will tell you the Iraqis, are a brutal people and they need a brutal leader to keep them in line, his name was Sadam Hussein. Not only was he a stabilizing influence in Iraq, he was also a stabilizing leader for the Gulf Countries.
More importantly he kept Iran under control; evidence being is if you watch what Mahmud Ahmadinejad is doing today. Iran did not and according to the locals here would not be pushing forward with their nuclear ambitions if Sadam was still leading Iraq. We have all heard that Sadam committed genocide and killed many people; here you hear a different story which I won’t go into right now as I am not sure I comprehend the whole thing. But to think we of the United States with our standards of life can understand the history of the battle between the Shiite and Sunni tribes is ludicrous.
Someone stated recently that we can win the war on terror as we have won the war on drugs. Bullshit, #1 we have not won the war on drugs and we will never win the war on terror. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE to win over people that believe it an honor to die for Allah. Every time we kill a (what we call terrorist) we have created a martyr and 2 or 3 more in his village join the battle after seeing the glory brought onto his family and to Allah. We say in the US it is an honor to die for our flag, but not one of us wants to die. The terrorist wants to die, how do you win a war against people who think like this? Kill them all? Not likely.
My wife and I have really had a hard time trying to understand the culture here in the Middle East and the Muslim faith; call to prayer five times a day suppression of the woman etc. But we have come to the conclusion, who are we to think our beliefs and our life style are the correct standards to live by. I think it was Aug that said this the other day, would we like it if another country came into your home town and decided how you should live, or if your neighbor told you how you had to cut your lawn, you wouldn't, so how can we expect these people to feel any different.
Our country allows all religions and cultures into our towns and cities, therefore it is a rite we allow and we can not go into another country and expect to have the same courtesy. We have to accept their customs.
There are a few of the countries here in the Gulf that are a little more progressive than others, such as Doha, UAE and Bahrain, but don't go there believing that you can do what ever you want, public display of affection, public drinking and drugs are not tolerated at all, and in some cases the penalty's are quite severe. Running a red light and causing an accident (not death just vehicle damage) can land you in jail for at least 1 year and this is in a progressive country, any of these in Iran or Saudi Arabia can bring a sentence of death.
Basically I am trying to say that there is not one of us that can say why the United States invaded Iraq. We are all guessing, we have heard about a couple of people that defected to the USA and made claims of the above atrocities. Does that justify invasion of another country? Do not upset people make claims that are not true? Absolutely they do.
With that said the United States still does not have the right to press upon another country our style of Government and our standards of living because we feel their beliefs are incorrect. We have to allow them to progress as they wish without interference. We have to take care of our own problems at home before we can even think of solving the World's problems. Yes,
if the UN has a problem we help but lets not create more conflicts as we have lately in the past couple of years, we can not afford it monetarily or humanly.

This post has been edited by chasl: 20 September 2008 - 09:59 PM

[zeedotcom]

Anyone watch the West Wing when it used to be on?

Perhaps someone can fill in the details more concretely, but in one episode a delegation from Belarus came to the White House for assistance in writing their new constitution. I believe that Lawrence Lessig was one of the people on the panel assisting them and he essentially spent the day explaining the different forms of government and talking them out of democracy.

When asked about it, he responded that he was giving them lessons by which to make the rules needed to make their society fair and just, not a set of rules to follow. Perhaps a democracy is not the right form of government.

Just found an episode guide from that one
http://westwing.bewa.../614wakeup.html

This post has been edited by zeedotcom: 22 September 2008 - 07:01 AM

[cjb]

zeedotcom, on Sep 22 2008, 08:01 AM, said:

Perhaps a democracy is not the right form of government.

That is probably correct, as a true democracy would be too cumbersome for a nation of any real size. Not to mention the "majority" is not always right or the most well equipped to make most decisions.

[LuvPow]

I was watching Bill Maher Fri. and 1 of his guests made a very good point...

"Give me Liberty or give me death"... the first Americans would have told any terrorists this.. come over here and kill me, but you are not taking away my freedom.
Our government cannot make us 100% safe, and we should not be "giving" away our freedom in order "feel" more safe from terrorists or anyone else. Sure..take measures that we need to for security reasons.. but we don't need to collectively loose our shit over these groups of terrorists.. we must go on.. with our constitution intact and our freedoms in place.

This post has been edited by skiersage: 23 September 2008 - 06:04 PM

[k2skier]

chasl, on Sep 20 2008, 10:49 PM, said:

You just have to live here to really understand what is going on, or not. I have been here in the Middle East for a little over a year now; I must say it has been an eye opener. The average person here will tell you the Iraqis, are a brutal people and they need a brutal leader to keep them in line, his name was Sadam Hussein. Not only was he a stabilizing influence in Iraq, he was also a stabilizing leader for the Gulf Countries.
More importantly he kept Iran under control; evidence being is if you watch what Mahmud Ahmadinejad is doing today. Iran did not and according to the locals here would not be pushing forward with their nuclear ambitions if Sadam was still leading Iraq. We have all heard that Sadam committed genocide and killed many people; here you hear a different story which I won’t go into right now as I am not sure I comprehend the whole thing. But to think we of the United States with our standards of life can understand the history of the battle between the Shiite and Sunni tribes is ludicrous.
Someone stated recently that we can win the war on terror as we have won the war on drugs. Bullshit, #1 we have not won the war on drugs and we will never win the war on terror. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE to win over people that believe it an honor to die for Allah. Every time we kill a (what we call terrorist) we have created a martyr and 2 or 3 more in his village join the battle after seeing the glory brought onto his family and to Allah. We say in the US it is an honor to die for our flag, but not one of us wants to die. The terrorist wants to die, how do you win a war against people who think like this? Kill them all? Not likely.
My wife and I have really had a hard time trying to understand the culture here in the Middle East and the Muslim faith; call to prayer five times a day suppression of the woman etc. But we have come to the conclusion, who are we to think our beliefs and our life style are the correct standards to live by. I think it was Aug that said this the other day, would we like it if another country came into your home town and decided how you should live, or if your neighbor told you how you had to cut your lawn, you wouldn't, so how can we expect these people to feel any different.
Our country allows all religions and cultures into our towns and cities, therefore it is a rite we allow and we can not go into another country and expect to have the same courtesy. We have to accept their customs.
There are a few of the countries here in the Gulf that are a little more progressive than others, such as Doha, UAE and Bahrain, but don't go there believing that you can do what ever you want, public display of affection, public drinking and drugs are not tolerated at all, and in some cases the penalty's are quite severe. Running a red light and causing an accident (not death just vehicle damage) can land you in jail for at least 1 year and this is in a progressive country, any of these in Iran or Saudi Arabia can bring a sentence of death.
Basically I am trying to say that there is not one of us that can say why the United States invaded Iraq. We are all guessing, we have heard about a couple of people that defected to the USA and made claims of the above atrocities. Does that justify invasion of another country? Do not upset people make claims that are not true? Absolutely they do.
With that said the United States still does not have the right to press upon another country our style of Government and our standards of living because we feel their beliefs are incorrect. We have to allow them to progress as they wish without interference. We have to take care of our own problems at home before we can even think of solving the World's problems. Yes,
if the UN has a problem we help but lets not create more conflicts as we have lately in the past couple of years, we can not afford it monetarily or humanly.

I said; The war on terror will be as successful as the war on drugs. Meaning it will always be a losing battle, I agree with you 100%!

[Callao]

I have now decided. I will be voting Republican this November.

[cjb]

I am undecided, the more I hear Obama/Biden the more I like being the poor victim of capitalism and the idea of getting something for doing nothing. Long live income re-distribution!!!

[LuvPow]

I can't stomach Palin.. I don't think that choice is something I can get past. The fact that McCain chose someone unqualified to try and gain votes instead of doing what is best for our country is messed up. He won't let anyone even talk to her.. I find it sad and pathetic.

Oh.. and I have been corrected on an earlier post , "intact" is the proper spelling.

This post has been edited by LuvPow: 23 September 2008 - 05:42 PM

[k2skier]

cjb, on Sep 20 2008, 06:13 PM, said:

Not sure why I am bothering but...

Unstoppable Global Warming, pages 1-260

http://www.dailytech.com/Temperature+Monit...rticle10866.htm

The author Michael Asher headlines the article; Twelve-month long drop in world temperatures wipes out a century of warming. Are you serious? Are you being sarcastic? The guy has zero credibility. No scientist with even a minor in the science field would publish anything so untrue. One year is an anomaly, not a trend. And last years anomaly ROCKED!

He goes on to say; All four major global temperature tracking outlets (Hadley, NASA's GISS, UAH, RSS) have released updated data. All show that over the past year, global temperatures have dropped precipitously.

And here's what NASA's GISS reports; A new NASA-led study shows human-caused climate change has made an impact on a wide range of Earth's natural systems, including permafrost thawing, plants blooming earlier across Europe, and lakes declining in productivity in Africa.

"This is the first study to link global temperature data sets, climate model results, and observed changes in a broad range of physical and biological systems to show the link between humans, climate, and impacts," said Rosenzweig, lead author of the study.

http://www.giss.nasa.../news/20080514/

At least pick someone's blog that's credible, jeeez.

[k2skier]

LuvPow, on Sep 23 2008, 06:41 PM, said:

I can't stomach Palin.. I don't think that choice is something I can get past. The fact that McCain chose someone unqualified to try and gain votes instead of doing what is best for our country is messed up. He won't let anyone even talk to her.. I find it sad and pathetic.

Oh.. and I have been corrected on an earlier post , "intact" is the proper spelling.

I was discussing this just today with a customer, a Republican, that this election has become a media circus and not a talent search for America. We can pick a good 'Idol', but we get the short end of the stick on who gets the money, (aka, leads) our country.

[cjb]

LuvPow, on Sep 23 2008, 06:41 PM, said:

The fact that McCain chose someone unqualified to try and gain votes instead of doing what is best for our country is messed up.

Speaking of no experience, Obama had less than 5 months in the senate before he began working on a presidential campaign.

k2skier, on Sep 23 2008, 09:01 PM, said:

One year is an anomaly, not a trend.

I get it, any increase is my SUV, and any decrease is an anomaly, thanks for clarifying.

[cjb]

k2skier, on Sep 23 2008, 09:01 PM, said:

And here's what NASA's GISS reports; A new NASA-led study shows human-caused climate change has made an impact on a wide range of Earth's natural systems, including permafrost thawing, plants blooming earlier across Europe, and lakes declining in productivity in Africa.

"This is the first study to link global temperature data sets, climate model results, and observed changes in a broad range of physical and biological systems to show the link between humans, climate, and impacts," said Rosenzweig, lead author of the study.

http://www.giss.nasa.../news/20080514/

The entire article goes on the unproven assumption of man-made global warming and does not address plateauing and dropping temperatures despite rising CO2.