39 replies to this topic

[Lift Dinosaur]

Bless you, my son!

[Allan]

madtexan, on Feb 6 2006, 04:12 PM, said:

I have been head of lift maint. at the biggest little mountain in NH for almost 8 years and I have had both the joy and the pain of working on two mueller doubles during my tenure here. I am unaware of the vintage of the lifts you inquire about but I can tell you all you need to know about our 60's vintage muellers. First, unless you have seen some with lifting arms there isn't much to appreciate about a mueller double tower design. In order to change a sheave you must have the famous 120 lb. portable lifting arm with 12,500 lb. rated tie back chains that you must carry up the tower and set up before you can even lift the haul rope from the sheaves. By the way, climbing a lattice tower in the winter with ice all over them is no picnic unless you have ladders which ours do not, and they didn't come with any. Due to the design of our mueller sheaves you cannot simply remove pressure from them by lifting the haul rope and inch or two to change the sheave, as the bearings are pressed on to a one-sided axle that is in turn, pressed into the wheel. You must completely open the sheave frame before you can even think about removing a wheel from the frame. Unlike Hall, Borvig, or Partek (three other brands of chairlift we have here) where just lifting the cable and inch and driving out either a through axle or pin to remove a sheave, mueller made this pleasantly impossible. Despite what some may think, this is not an enjoyable process when it is 80 degrees out, not to mention in the dead of winter. Ever heard of the Double-X Clamp? Let me educate you. Not one, but two cast "fingers" or "pullers" tensioned by TWO stacks of 56 spring washers housed in an aluminum "head". If you have never seen one, they are hard to picture as they are unique and unlike anything else you have ever seen. This grip has a bushing in the chair neck where the aluminum head pivots, hence the need for two fingers as the design creates a duel pivot point. The second finger slides through an aluminum "glide block" in the head that pivots side to side as the grips go around the bullwheel. This second finger also stabilizes the grip, preventing it from pivoting in two points. A complicated grip to be sure. Sometime in the 80's a seat broke free of its bail causing it to fall to the ground and the chairs had to be retrofitted with gussets that connect the seat to the bail. The original design had the seat mounted to the bail using only 4 5mm allen bolts. These bolts sheared as they obviously were not strong enough to hold the weight the carriers were meant to hold. Adding these gussets was an obvious improvement but created another problem all together. The neck of the chair is slid onto each side of the bail with four bolts holding it in place as the bail actually comes apart in two halves with the seat and the neck holding the two sides of the bail together. Adding these gussets prevents you from taking the chair apart easily to replace a neck if the need arises. And in our case, it arises from time to time. The primary weld located at the top of the neck where the grip bushing is installed has begun to present problems for us. Due to the age of our lifts it is a required procedure to visually inspect 10% of the chairs on line, primary welds daily after operating to the public. Granted, upgrades and retrofits are always an option, but in the ski business money and grandfathering laws always present a challenge. Though Muellers are unique and neat in a nostalgic kind of way, it seems to me that they were over-engineered and not built to be worked on without some choice words and f bombs being dropped now and again. So if you don't have a Mueller, or never worked on one, don't be too upset, you can just think of me upon some mountain freezing, wondering if I should have a Paleantologist Degree so I can better understand the Dinosaurs in my back yard.

haha, I've dealt with all of this, except the failing carriers! Try dragging that lifting frame, turnbuckle, and a 3 ton chainfall down the steepest part of the liftline by foot to a derail!!

[Aussierob]

So the $64 question is which ski hill in NH has at least 4 different brands of lifts?

[liftmech]

I know but I cheated.

Hey madtexan- looks like you inherited that department at a young age... isn't it nice working on lifts older than yourself? I've been there as well, not Muellers but Murray-Lattas. Now that I'm

[madtexan]

Allan, on Feb 6 2006, 09:04 PM, said:

haha, I've dealt with all of this, except the failing carriers! Try dragging that lifting frame, turnbuckle, and a 3 ton chainfall down the steepest part of the liftline by foot to a derail!!

Hence the need to stay on top of line work and alignment. We are adamant about this especially with our Muellers because of the work involved in with this type of tower design. Granted, sometimes unforseen things happen and thats just the way it go's. It's nice to know that there are some out there that deal with the same things. I don't envy you at all.

liftmech, on Feb 7 2006, 03:16 PM, said:

I know but I cheated.

Hey madtexan- looks like you inherited that department at a young age... isn't it nice working on lifts older than yourself? I've been there as well, not Muellers but Murray-Lattas. Now that I'm

You would be correct. 22 years old with no prior experience. Who else would take the job? I must admit, I have never heard of Murray-Lattas. Some info would be cool.

Aussierob, on Feb 6 2006, 11:47 PM, said:

So the $64 question is which ski hill in NH has at least 4 different brands of lifts?

Actually 6 different brands, and I'll never tell.

[Peter]

Pats Peak, its in your profile

[madtexan]

Skier, on Feb 7 2006, 03:50 PM, said:

Pats Peak, its in your profile

But is my profile correct?

[Ricardo]

Thanks madtexan, that was very insightful. Sounds like a 'character-building' experience everytime you have to service one of those suckers!

It sounds like they were in the over-engineering business, without much focus on the serviceability aspect of their designs. I wonder if this is/was indicative of European manufacturers at the time?

Did Mueller evolve their sheave/tower enginnering to improve serviceability over time, or did they fundamentally stick to the same designs?

From my lay-person's perspective, there didn't seem to be a significant evolution outside the fitting arms to their lattice towers in the early-mid 70's, and the final move to centre-pole in the early 80's.

[Peter]

The 1979 triple at Big White had lifting frames and ladders.

Attached File(s)

•  Lifting_arm_bit_to_jpeg.jpg (105.27K)
  Number of downloads: 87

[Carl]

madtexan, on Feb 6 2006, 05:12 PM, said:

I can tell you all you need to know about our 60's vintage muellers

Yessir, we had one here at Jackson Hole for many years and all those things you describe in your post hit home!!!
I was very glad to see it leave and become a Doppel..Quad.

Carl

[Allan]

Allan, on Feb 6 2006, 08:55 AM, said:

I don't know if it's a name, or a word - I couldn't find the translation for it. There's a GMD plaque on the side of the Red chair, that's how I knew :)

Dietlikon = a city (or region) in Switzerland!

[TPD]

Dietlikon is a bigger village in the near of Zuerich.

[Winterhighland]

I do apologise for digging up an oldish thread as my first post, but I was interested in this thread as I have Mueller detachable chair in the garden! I have in the past worked for CairnGorm Mountain, a snowsport area in the Highlands of Scotland, and have skied there since I was four! The mountain has six Mueller T-bars, 1 Mueller baby platter lift and two 2FG chairs.

Until the 2002 season the mountain actually had four Mueller Chairs. In December 2001 a funicular railway which took 3 years to construct opened, replacing the two stage Cairngorm Chairlift. This chair was built in two stages, the upper and longer section opening first on Dec 23rd 1961, indeed the funicular was opened to the public 40years to the day that the old White Lady chair opened.

The White Lady Chair was a Mueller side facing detachable double that seemed to fascinate the work crew from doppelmayr and gatners!

http://www.winterhighland.info/pix/display...=375&height=500

Photo Link - White Lady Chair on last day of operation.

Attached is a photo of a detachable grip from this chairlift, the cog run under a rack-rail to tighten the grip, and run over a rack-rail to release the grip. Under normal operations the chairs were stopped completely by the liftie for loading and unloading at a gap in the station drive belts, however without intervention the chairs would travel continuously through the station before being sped up and put back onto the line.

 grip.jpg (80.6K)
Number of downloads: 32

The White Lady Chairlift was retired after 40 years of continual service operating year round, the other two ford facing fixed grip Mueller chairlifts in Coire Na Ciste face a less distinguished end to their working life, the lower section last carried passengers in March 2002, while the upper West Wall Section last carried passengers in 2004. This sector of the ski area despite having the best expert terrain has been neglected for years and has been steadily falling into disrepair due to the management decisions in the mid 90s. However the final straw as a fire which burnt down the top station of the West Wall Chair in spring 2004 and it was never rebuilt. That said the drive for the lift was beyond the unloading station, and was not damaged. However the lift lay completely idle for the best part of 2years with the carriers on the line.

 ciste_chair_1.jpg (81.13K)
Number of downloads: 45

 ciste_chair_2.jpg (55.41K)
Number of downloads: 24

Despite the lack of upkeep and the fact both lifts are facing decommissioning (to the fury of the season pass holders), both of these chairs are still operable and both continue to be used to move staff and equipment around this sector of the mountain, and to evacuate people picked up by ski patrol! So there may just be some hope that these lifts will survive long enough for a change of heart as there is no plans to replace them when they are dismantled. Indeed there has been some talk amongst pass holders about trying to use volunteer work parties to repair the lifts and try and bring them back into operation that way.

Attached are some pictures of the foot of the lower Coire Na Ciste chair taken this summer. Triva about the Mueller / GMD names - Gerhard Mueller Dietlikon. Dietlikon is a village of about 8,000 inhabitants near Zurich.

 ciste_chair_3.jpg (115.35K)
Number of downloads: 18

Finally a photo of the oldest of the Mueller T-bars on CairnGorm, the Coire Cas Ski Tow which was installed in 1962 doing it's stuff.

http://www.winterhighland.info/pix/display...p?photo_id=1561

Not the oldest Mueller in Scotland, that accolade goes to the Meall Odhar T-bar at Glenshee which will enter it's 50th year of service this coming season having been installed in 1957.

[mikest2]

WBSKI, on Feb 4 2006, 02:12 PM, said:

Wonder why the apex triple (Stocks) doesnt have lattice towers.

We built the Powder Chair in 79 and specified tube towers. I think Stocks was built a year or two later, and Apex did the same. There is one more at Shames (I think). The Powder was the triple prototype. I stayed up late a lot of nights back then changing grip bodies on a regular basis (type EX grip, guess what that meant). We recieved one lifting arm per tower when we built it, and added a second to each tower almost right away. In 27 years it has never derailed (heavy tower loading). We gave up on the Square D switches in the mid 80's and went to break forks(broken by the spring piston) One thing I'll say about Mueller is that they are bulletproof, We took a direct lightning strike a couple of years ago, blew up the drive and motor, but had her up and running in 2 days. The top operator took a bolt to the head from the sound powered phone, and the phones still worked fine.

[watchtower]

Ricardo, on Feb 8 2006, 12:42 AM, said:

Did Mueller evolve their sheave/tower enginnering to improve serviceability over time, or did they fundamentally stick to the same designs?

Mueller didn't evolve much in the 70s since Gerhard Mueller himself was so obsessed with his Aerobus project (a suspended
monorail) that his lift business was merely considered a cash cow. The lifts were selling like hot cakes, especially
overseas, since they were pretty cheap and still rather well built. So Mueller put all the money from the lift business
in the development of Aerobus.

Quote

there didn't seem to be a significant evolution outside the fitting arms to their lattice towers in the early-mid 70's, and the final move to centre-pole in the early 80's.

The lattice towers were a USP back then because no expensive helicopters were needed for transportation and the towers
could be assembled on site which was a big plus especially in the high alps.

When sales of the lifts began to drop in the late 70s and the Aerobus didn't take off, Mueller was forced to redesign his lifts
in order to keep in pace with the other manufacturers and legislation changes in Switzerland.

While the basic sheave design didn't change, everything else did. Tower arms, maintenance platforms and ladders became
standard, at least in Europe, while his Canadian outfit mostly stuck to the old designs.

Here's a picture of a T-bar built in the early 80s. Check out my album on flickr for some more pictures of
Mueller lifts old and new: Here

[vonrollskyway1]

Mueller detachables are a very cool lift.i feel the same way about the vonroll type 101s.they are getting more and more scarse.i enjoyed reading about working on a Mueller.has anyone ever worked on a vr 101 here??

[mikest2]

edmontonguy, on Feb 4 2006, 01:54 PM, said:

They were a newer style of mueller tower i think, or perhaps the triple chair design, Both the Powder Chair and the Triple at Big White have the same style of towers. As far as i know these are the only two Meuller triples in existance, however there may be more.

There's also one at Shames mtn. We have the first triple, and we specicifically ordered tube towers.

[Ryan]

Here is a link to a short video of a Muller Gondola grip: Muller Gondola Grip

[Richardo]

Thanks Watchtower, that was very informative.

I believe that Mueller (in Europe anyway) became Rowema after a management buyout. Any idea how successful they've been?

[Carl]

Yup, JH had a Mueller. I had the pleasure of doing grip maintenance many times along with tower maintenance. We'd even torque EVERY bolt on the
towers once in a while. The seat's were welded to the bails to supplement those 5mm "doily" bolts.


The drive terminal's features were "interesting"! The very long belts were a pain. The remote "mechanical" controls for the 283 Chevy V-8 and it's Clutch Equipped Saginaw 3 Speed Tranny were a challenge to keep "in tune". The bullwheel brake would flex the structure enough that we added
gussets to keep the brake from cracking the structure.


Gearbox Maintenance required Bullwheel removal. One late summer discovery of bad bearings resulted in a reinstallation via Aerial Tram. The "Car 2" side was almost directly above the Chairlift's Drive Terminal so some "creative" rigging brought the gearbox up underneath the Tram for delivery
to the top of the lift.

Yeah, I know what a Mueller is..... the lattice towers had a sort of "Chrysler Pentagram" pattern so the lift was named "The Dodge Boy".

:D

Carl