105 replies to this topic

[liftmech]

teachme, on 25 May 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Interesting points on P2P, but still think it was a poor choice as 1) the money could have been much better spent on opening new terrain with new lifts, and 2) before P2P people would just stick to one mountain for the day. Each mountain is so big that there was not usually any need to change mountains during a single ski day. It certainly makes getting between mountains easier, but usually, why bother?

The only real benefit I can see in it is for marketing.

TME

Good point. Both mountains are huge, really more terrain that one can ski in a day.

[DonaldMReif]

I can easily ski all I want to see at Breckenridge, Keystone, Copper Mountain, Crested Butte, Winter Park, or Steamboat in a day. But with Whistler-Blackcomb, I'd either stick to Whistler or to Blackcomb and stay there for the entire day. The only reason you would use P2P is if you're beginning at Creekside Village, so you don't have to go all the way down Whistler's front side to the Excalibur Gondola after your trip up the Creekside Gondola and Big Red Express, and also bypass the Excelerator Express and Jersey Cream Express.

[snoloco]

The Devil's Fiddle Quad at Killington takes home the trophy for the most pointless lift ever installed anywhere. It was built to increase capacity of the 1979 Bear Mountain Triple in 1983. While the Bear Mountain Triple was accessible from the base area and parking lots, the Devil's Fiddle Quad was built uphill from it. This means that you need cannot ski all the Bear Mountain trails and reach it, or any of the trails from Skye Peak to Bear Mountain Base. The only trails on Bear Mountain that you could ski off of it repeatedly were Devil's Fiddle, and Bear Cub.

When the Bear Mountain Triple was converted to a quad in 1984, the Devil's Fiddle Quad was even more useless. I heard that its original purpose was if the Northeast Passage and Parker's Gore areas worked out. It started right on the trail that would be used to transition from these areas back to Bear Mountain and the rest of Killington. Northeast Passage opened in 1982 as a gateway to Parker's Gore. Parker's Gore was shot down by treehuggers in the early 90's. Then ASC nixed Northeast Passage in 1998 because they didn't have enough money to buy land and had to swap it instead to get the land for the Killington Pico Interconnect. When ASC overreached and built The Canyons out of Wolf Mountain, they ran out of money and shelved plans for the interconnect. Now they had just nixed some terrain and didn't build any in return, had a different plan shot down, and they now had a useless underutilized lift.

Throughout the 2000's, this lift sat idle most of the time. It only opened for a couple weekends of the year on some occasions. It may not have opened at all in some years. For most of this time, it had logged more maintenance hours than operating hours. When Powdr took over in 2007, their first order of business was to replace the Skye Peak Quad with a high speed quad named the Skye Peak Express. This was done in summer of 2008. When this was done, they built The Stash terrain park and moved almost every single terrain park to that lift. This was supposed to reduce traffic on the Bear Mountain even more so that the unnecessary Devil's Fiddle Quad would not be needed any more. It was mothballed in the summer of 2008 (they removed the chairs and haul rope). It has remained "standing but not operating" with the chairs and haul rope gone ever since. It is an eyesore on the mountain and should be completely removed soon. I guess it costs even more to remove the lift than scrap value. There has got to be some way to remove these towers without a helicopter. They just need to cut them off the footings and drag them down the hill. I am sure that there is some kind of logging equipment that can be used to move them. All that needs to be done after that is to load them onto a truck and bring them straight to the local scrapyard.

[Yooper Skier]

Lift 15, or Oz at Sunday River serves little purpose other than create another "peak" and add another 50 vertical or so to the trail map. 95% of its terrain is accessible from Lift 14 (Jordan Bowl Express). Les Otten's LBO Enterprises went on an expansion spree by purchasing Attitash and Sugarbush in 1994 and Cranmore in '95. In 1995, Oz was built at Sunday River; Super Bravo, Gate House, Slide Brook, and Green Mountain at Sugarbush; Flying Bear at Attitash, and Skimobile at Cranmore were all built by Doppelmayr. I have a feeling it was part of a package deal more than a truly needed lift as it only runs 10-2 on Saturday's, Sunday's, and holidays. Imagine a 1995 Doppelmayr with 4,100 hours. Sad.

[snoloco]

ASC sucks. They ruined every single mountain they ever ran. They went through not well thought out spending sprees and then ran out of money, leaving the mountains in horrible condition.

Attitash has 2 lifts that seem very long for Fixed Grips. The one that belongs in this list is another ASC screw up. The Abenaki Quad was originally built in 1994 by CTEC. Because this was an ASC installation, it was a 3,800 feet long fixed grip, bottom drive, and no footrest just like the lifts that they installed at The Canyons which were also built as cheaply as possible. Sometime in the early 2000's, they simply extended the already long fixed grip to serve a condo development rather than replacing it with a detach which should have been done from the very beginning. They now have a 5,000+ foot long fixed grip with no footrest.

The other very long fixed grip that is a main lift is the Summit Triple. It is over 6,000 feet long. ASC replaced a mid mountain double with an HSQ that is only 2,800 feet long. That is the Flying Yankee Express. Who in their right mind would put a multi million dollar HSQ there rather than replacing a 6,000+ foot long fixed grip!?

This post has been edited by snoloco: 26 May 2014 - 04:02 PM

[Peter]

Yooper Skier, on 26 May 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Lift 15, or Oz at Sunday River serves little purpose other than create another "peak" and add another 50 vertical or so to the trail map. 95% of its terrain is accessible from Lift 14 (Jordan Bowl Express). Les Otten's LBO Enterprises went on an expansion spree by purchasing Attitash and Sugarbush in 1994 and Cranmore in '95. In 1995, Oz was built at Sunday River; Super Bravo, Gate House, Slide Brook, and Green Mountain at Sugarbush; Flying Bear at Attitash, and Skimobile at Cranmore were all built by Doppelmayr. I have a feeling it was part of a package deal more than a truly needed lift as it only runs 10-2 on Saturday's, Sunday's, and holidays. Imagine a 1995 Doppelmayr with 4,100 hours. Sad.

Your sister resort to the north could really use that lift to replace some of their aging Borvigs (Double Runner comes to mind)

[DonaldMReif]

The Canyons really suffered for a while from questionable lift decisions, like Day Break, Peak 5, and the Sun Peak lift.

And Eagle Wind at Winter Park used to be Outrigger, but was essentially useless as a backup for the Eskimo Express because even though it started at Snoasis, it ended closer to the top of the Olympia Express and also bypassed Sunspot, so you only could reach the High Lonesome Express and Pioneer Express by using Outrigger.

[SkiDaBird]

I'm not super familiar with Snowbasin, but I have a friend who thinks the new alignment of Little Cat is idiotic.

[DonaldMReif]

I agree by looking at a trail map that they should've put that lift upgrade on a different lift.

[Yooper Skier]

Peter, on 26 May 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

Your sister resort to the north could really use that lift to replace some of their aging Borvigs (Double Runner comes to mind)

I've heard that idea get tossed around on a few occasions. It was also possibly up for our own Spruce Peak replacement at one time, which is now (supposedly) going to be a SkyTrac...if that happens

[vons]

SkiDaBird, on 26 May 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

I'm not super familiar with Snowbasin, but I have a friend who thinks the new alignment of Little Cat is idiotic.

Not sure what you friend means, the new little cat is in a great location to teach on and fits well with Snowbasin's future base area development plans. It also removes some cross traffic issues that existed before.

[RibStaThiok]

I also questioned the new alignment and a HSQ replacement for Littlecat, but does in fact make sense when you think about it in terms of keeping beginner traffic away from Needles Express and John Paul Express, also gets skiers up to Becker and Wildcat quicker (Not that they use Wildcat much anymore except on super busy days and as a back-up for Becker) Before Snowbasin did all the upgrades/additions in the mid-late 90s, The upper parking lot was the main lot and you would either ski directly to Becker or Wildcat to access the upper mountains, or down to the old Littlecat for the beginner stuff. Now with all the base being down below where the old Littlecat bottom terminal was at, it made sense with what they did putting Littlecat Express where it is at now.

This post has been edited by RibStaThiok: 27 May 2014 - 10:48 AM

[machskier]

Yooper Skier, on 27 May 2014 - 01:14 AM, said:

I've heard that idea get tossed around on a few occasions. It was also possibly up for our own Spruce Peak replacement at one time, which is now (supposedly) going to be a SkyTrac...if that happens

All true but I do like that Oz is a bit more wind protected than Jordan and assuming Oz has the snow to ski, it has been used when Jordan is on wind hold to open up some of the western side (it has run with both Jordan and Aurora on wind hold at times!)

[machskier]

snoloco, on 26 May 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

ASC sucks. They ruined every single mountain they ever ran. They went through not well thought out spending sprees and then ran out of money, leaving the mountains in horrible condition.

Attitash has 2 lifts that seem very long for Fixed Grips. The one that belongs in this list is another ASC screw up. The Abenaki Quad was originally built in 1994 by CTEC. Because this was an ASC installation, it was a 3,800 feet long fixed grip, bottom drive, and no footrest just like the lifts that they installed at The Canyons which were also built as cheaply as possible. Sometime in the early 2000's, they simply extended the already long fixed grip to serve a condo development rather than replacing it with a detach which should have been done from the very beginning. They now have a 5,000+ foot long fixed grip with no footrest.

The other very long fixed grip that is a main lift is the Summit Triple. It is over 6,000 feet long. ASC replaced a mid mountain double with an HSQ that is only 2,800 feet long. That is the Flying Yankee Express. Who in their right mind would put a multi million dollar HSQ there rather than replacing a 6,000+ foot long fixed grip!?

True on the Abenaki quad, though I'm not sure the real estate extension was in the original install plans (this was the original Bear Peak lift and yes, it was done cheap but was the first ski terrain expansion in the MWV in years if not decades. Less than 4000 to me = fixed grip anyway).

The summit Triple is a question, ASC did lower the carriers on the upper quarter to improve wind resistance. But I notice the new owners have done nothing to that triple either all while making some big installs at Mt. Snow and even Crotched (granted that HSQ is Ascutney's used one).

[snoloco]

The Town Triple at Park City seems like it should have been on the chopping block a long time ago since it is a 6,200 foot long fixed grip. It is longer than all but one of their detachables and is an essential lift. An HSQ, HSS, or gondola would do very well there and I hope Vail does something about it once they take control.

My criteria for whether a lift should be a detach or not, is that it should if it is over 3,000 feet and should be considered for lifts under that if the capacity is needed. Only in a few cases do I think that it is ok to install a fixed grip over 3,000 feet. One example is the Sojourn Double at Mountain Creek. This 4,800 foot long lift is only a way from Mountain Creek South to Mountain Creek North and runs 90% empty 90% of the time. It is only a lift to connect the two sides and it is not used to lap terrain. The only trail that can be lapped from it is the Southern Sojourn connector that goes from the north side to the south side. Another exception is the Little Whiteface Double and the Summit Quad at Whiteface. These two lifts are 4,500 feet long and 4,800 feet long respectively. They serve mostly expert trails at a mountain that caters to a highly advanced crowd. This allows them to operate at a higher speed which I think is closer to 500-550 fpm. This makes the ride shorter, and they do not stop or slow much due to the fact that they are mostly used by high level skiers and riders. They serve 1,500 and 1,800 feet of vertical respectively, and the trails are very steep and loop around a lot, so the runs are difficult and long which the extra ride time gives your legs a rest.

[Backbowlsbilly]

DonaldMReif, on 26 May 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

The Canyons really suffered for a while from questionable lift decisions, like Day Break, Peak 5, and the Sun Peak lift.

Day Break is a completely pointless lift, if should have been extended to the top of the ridge and made high speed, or they should have waited until they had the money to build one there. However, I can reason with Peak 5 and Sun Peak. Peak 5 doesn't serve any terrain itself but was the only way to Dreamscape/Daybreak before Iron Mountain and Dreamcatcher were built. It also is way easier to take Peak 5 over to Dreamscape and Dreamcatcher then ski all the way down to Timberline, then take Iron Mountain up, then ski down to Dreamcatcher. Personally, I enjoyed Peak 5 because of the nice glades on both sides of the lift and the entire Peak 5 area was never crowded. Sun Peak was questionable when it was built but it makes a bit more sense now, with the Orange Bubble Express having a top terminal that funnels people right to the bottom of Sun Peak and with the mountain's terrain park on that lift as well. I think that Dreamscape will get replaced by Vail, the renovations at Cloud Dine this year signal that for an upcoming year.

[SkiDaBird]

snoloco, on 27 May 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

The Town Triple at Park City seems like it should have been on the chopping block a long time ago since it is a 6,200 foot long fixed grip. It is longer than all but one of their detachables and is an essential lift. An HSQ, HSS, or gondola would do very well there and I hope Vail does something about it once they take control.

My criteria for whether a lift should be a detach or not, is that it should if it is over 3,000 feet and should be considered for lifts under that if the capacity is needed. Only in a few cases do I think that it is ok to install a fixed grip over 3,000 feet. One example is the Sojourn Double at Mountain Creek. This 4,800 foot long lift is only a way from Mountain Creek South to Mountain Creek North and runs 90% empty 90% of the time. It is only a lift to connect the two sides and it is not used to lap terrain. The only trail that can be lapped from it is the Southern Sojourn connector that goes from the north side to the south side. Another exception is the Little Whiteface Double and the Summit Quad at Whiteface. These two lifts are 4,500 feet long and 4,800 feet long respectively. They serve mostly expert trails at a mountain that caters to a highly advanced crowd. This allows them to operate at a higher speed which I think is closer to 500-550 fpm. This makes the ride shorter, and they do not stop or slow much due to the fact that they are mostly used by high level skiers and riders. They serve 1,500 and 1,800 feet of vertical respectively, and the trails are very steep and loop around a lot, so the runs are difficult and long which the extra ride time gives your legs a rest.

Town isn't an essential lift at all. There are 2 runs and downtown PC has free buses to the base of all the areas. Honestly, what they should do is add a midstation where the lift encounters the Payday pod so it would be significantly shorter for those who wanted to ski there and not use the lift as a connect.

[SkiDaBird]

I complain about fixed grips but that's because I'm spoiled skiing at Bird. Honestly, if it's under 5000 I understand the resorts reasoning for not having a detach.

[snoloco]

Another pointless lift is the Mountain Run Double at Whiteface. It was added when the Olympics were held there for the 1979 1980 season. It was added to provide access to the Mountain Run trail that was used for the slalom course. It runs halfway up the line of the Little Whiteface Double. Little Whiteface has a midstation where Mountain Run ends, so it serves all the the terrain Mountain Run serves, plus more, and you can lap the lower portion. Mountain Run seldom runs. Most of the time, it is only used on during Christmas, MLK Weekend, and President's Weekend, or when Little Whiteface is on windhold because of winds in its upper portion. They may as well leave it because it is useful when there is windholds. It looks as if Little Whiteface will be around for a while since it had its towers galvanized and the towerheads replaced.

The only replacement that would work for everything would be a 2 stage HSQ similar to Collins at Alta, but with turnarounds in the mid station . They would have both drives at the current mid station and make the first stage a bottom tension and the second stage a top tension. If it was windy, they could shut down the upper section and run just the lower section.

[DonaldMReif]

Like the Skyeship or Excalibur Gondolas? Those are two stage gondolas that I think have turnarounds in their midstations that make it possible to run each stage as a separate lift or as one continuous lift.